028: Choose Presence

Songwriter Elias Dummer (The City Harmonic) joins us this week to break down what happens in the brain when we sing as a group, the ways choice making is not always rational, and how choosing to be present is practicing the presence of God.

This week’s Practice: Choose Presence

+ 028 Choose Presence - Elias Dummer Transcript

Tim: Everybody, Tim Timmons here with 10,000 Minute Experiment.

Emmoe: Let's go.

Chris: You did it.

Emmoe: We're not all perfect. It's okay.

Tim: We're not all perfect. We're going to start again. All right, everybody welcome to the 10,000 Minute Experiment. This is Timothy Howard Timmons. We've got [Iram 00:00:17] Emmoe Doniz.

Emmoe: Come on. Emmoe.

Tim: Emmoe Doniz.

Emmoe: Geez.

Chris: Hey, guys. I'm Chris.

Tim: Chris Cleveland.

Chris: It's good to be here.

Tim: To my hot left, your hot right, your hot middle, we've got Elias Dummer.

Elias: I'm spinning.

Tim: So you go by Elias or Eli?

Elias: Eli is great. That works too.

Tim: The best way to do it.

Elias: Yeah. Elias, Eli, matters not to me.

Tim: Yeah. And it's kind of like when I go to Norfolk, the place that you don't ever want to say the name of the place because you feel like you're going to say something wrong.

Elias: That's true.

Tim: Because I just-

Chris: Is there an L?

Tim: ... Yeah, there's an L but it's not pronounced. And I just pronounced it actually incorrect, but to pronounce it correct you'd have to really say the bad word. And so sometimes if I'm saying your name out loud, your last name Dummer, I don't want to say it because I'm like, "I don't want to mispronounce it."

Elias: Oh totally. It would probably be more difficult if I didn't embody it.

Tim: Yeah. I mean you embrace it.

Emmoe: Got him.

Tim: So true. Well, I always say because you're so aware of it and you're always saying something about it, which just defuses everything.

Elias: Yeah, I mean, the first kid in kindergarten had something to say and then that was it. You get used to it. It doesn't bother me in the slightest at this point.

Tim: Okay. So just for fun, I mean we're not even... Whatever, how did that shape you? Did that shape you? It's kind of like a boy named Sue technically.

Elias: Yeah. I think that's probably a good way to put it. You end up with thick skin because basically I mean every. "Hello, my name is..." I'm either wearing a name tag that they can't read or...

Tim: Did you ever try to jack up your R so it looked like an O?

Elias: No. I never did that. I mean [crosstalk 00:02:09].

Chris: Add a dash over. Dummer.

Elias: Dummer. Well, in Canada you might have flown with it but people would come up and they would try everything to avoid saying Dummer. And for whatever reason, maybe some part of me is little bit of a jerk or something and I'm like, "It's Dummer, you can please say it."

Tim: Yeah. I mean, I'm actually being serious, did it shape you at all?

Elias: Yeah. I mean, I think so on some level. It's hard not to. I mean, particularly in that my name is Elias mostly because my mom was named Jan. She was always called Janet or Janice or everything and she was forced into this position of having to say, "It's just Jan." So in her head this whole just Jan thing really shaped her. So she was like, "Well, we're going to call you Eli, but we're going to name you Elias in the hopes that you're never just Eli." Well, the problem was as lovely as that sounds, they didn't notice that the syllable that they added is the word is. So kindergarten I'm going by Eli, Eli is dumber is the whole thing.

Emmoe: Oh man.

Elias: It's kind of impossible to avoid. So I think if there's a sense in which I'm trying to prove something to myself in the universe, I'm sure it has something to do with that.

Chris: I think you've proved it. Let's be honest. You've done fine.

Elias: We will see.

Tim: Well, all right. Hey, everybody. So we've got Elias Dummer on our podcast today. Thank you for listening by the way and thanks for your encouragement. And if you want to encourage us more you can go to 10,000 Minutes and send us an email or donate. Or just go to our Facebook or our Instagram and you could send us little notes about what's been powerful or helpful for you. Elias was in a band called The City Harmonic and they had a song called Manifesto that is so good and startled me years ago when I first heard it. Now he is doing a bunch of individual projects and he is amazing.

Tim: So Elias and I are becoming fast friends. And let's just say that our walks are filled with personal struggle, comedy, and wild theological rants. So I think you're going to love this episode and if you don't, don't tell me. But what you can do is you can rate, like, and subscribe to this podcast anywhere you are. And maybe leave some comments and share it with some other people. That's enough. You guys, thank you for journeying with us. I hope you love this episode. You had to go be an artist?

Elias: Yeah. Right, because that's a great idea.

Tim: That every time you got to say your name. And you didn't go stage name. I mean, we have a lot of friends who have stage names.

Elias: I have had that strongly recommended along the way and I was like, "No. I'm going to go with it."

Tim: Yeah. Watch this. You'll remember it.

Elias: Yeah. Well, and it's funny. You remember Delirious' first record was King of Fools and he would wear that circus hat. And I was like, "I just have to identify myself. Have the same thing."

Tim: Yeah. I mean, Tim Timmons, people have always said, "Is that the real name?"

Elias: I mean, I can't count the number of times we've all called you Tim Timmon in public repeatedly.

Tim: Now it feels great. It feels great.

Elias: I'm sure you're happy about it.

Tim: Tim Timmory. I mean, how many dumb things do I get?

Elias: Well, the best part is I feel like as one person in the universe I get to do that. I have 100% earned any name jokes I can come up with as cheap a shot as they may be. Because it's just I'm in, let's go. It's easy.

Tim: So true. I mean, that came across... But even on a deeper level there is something to be said about... For me, when people talk about their sorrow or their sadness, with my cancer journey I get to speak into that. I could actually say some things that most people couldn't say.

Elias: Oh, totally. Well, and I think the idea of proving yourself, the idea of proving something wrong. I mean, you add being Canadian to that, which if folks don't know... It's not always the case, but Canada has sort of this British-ish who do you think you are thing, where there's that kind of you can poke your head up but not too tall. So there's a little bit of that probably caked into every Canadian artist you guys know and you know a few. So there's a little bit of that kind of I'm going to go out there and I'm going to do a thing and do it the way I feel is right.

Tim: Yeah. Screw all of you.

Elias: Yeah. Not quite but there's a little bit of that kind of boy called Sue thing, where you're out there going on. I'm the opposite of what you probably think I am on some level.

Tim: Yeah. Well, we just walked the other day.

Elias: Yeah, that's right.

Tim: Yeah. Eli and I just went on a walk. Chris, we went to a different place.

Chris: Where'd you go?

Tim: We did Smith Park.

Chris: Is it weird I'm a little jealous?

Tim: Totally.

Elias: It could have been a group walk.

Chris: I don't think Tim's into the trios.

Emmoe: Please.

Tim: And then you just walked.... I just walked with a guy named Micah, who that day he's like, "I'm riding with Chris Cleveland."

Chris: Yeah, we rode that day.

Tim: And I'm like, "Oh, he walks this walk all the time."

Chris: We wrote a song that was stemmed from the walk. I'll let you listen to [crosstalk 00:06:59].

Tim: Really?

Elias: About walking?

Chris: Yeah. He said you guys stopped at some point and you made him not talk.

Tim: Yeah. You're outside [crosstalk 00:07:08].

Chris: Oh, thank God.

Tim: I'm totally kidding.

Chris: And he was like, "And this is what came to my head." And I was like, "Where is this song?" And it happened.

Tim: Love it.

Elias: Cool.

Emmoe: Magical.

Chris: And I said, "Tim Timmons is not getting a cut of this song."

Tim: Yes, please.

Elias: Yeah. It just depends on how loosely you're defining the room.

Chris: Yeah, that's right.

Elias: Speaking of in the room, we did just have a friend, Savannah Locke, and somehow Canadians came up or maple. Why did maple up?

Chris: Yeah. Maple syrup.

Tim: And then Chris said maple jam.

Chris: I did. I don't know if that's a thing.

Elias: I don't believe it is. Well, there is maple spread.

Chris: Let's go.

Tim: Chris.

Chris: I'm into that.

Emmoe: You were onto something.

Chris: That's the same thing guys.

Tim: It's definitely not the same thing.

Chris: It's just some way Canadians say it. It's language.

Tim: Maple aioli?

Emmoe: Yeah. Their jam is our spread. Got it.

Tim: So you're one of those Canadians?

Elias: I am indeed.

Chris: We were also trying to make sure what the-

Tim: Sports balls team.

Chris: ... what the sports balls team was called. The Maple Leafs.

Elias: Yes. The Toronto Maple Leafs. I have repeatedly heard them called the Maple Leaves and it-

Chris: Leafs.

Elias: ... is upsetting. It is Leafs.

Chris: Not a V but an F.

Elias: Maple Leafs. You guys said it right just now.

Chris: Now we know.

Elias: I don't know on some other occasions-

Chris: Now I'm worried I didn't.

Tim: Leafs, but you're totally-

Elias: ... Maple Leafs.

Tim: With an F?

Elias: Yeah. With an F. Maple Leafs.

Chris: Done.

Tim: This is perfect.

Chris: And they play the sport of?

Tim: Of hockey.

Chris: Of hockey.

Tim: [inaudible 00:08:26].

Elias: The national religion of hockey.

Tim: Okay. Well, Eli...

Chris: That's how interested we are.

Elias: I'm guessing the hockey topic is dead. That's what that means.

Tim: I'm going to be honest, with hockey I don't understand icing at all. And people have tried to explain it. It's almost like [crosstalk 00:08:45].

Elias: Well, you played soccer.

Chris: It's like off sides in soccer. But I don't get that either so I'm like, "I don't know."

Tim: People try to explain.

Elias: Well, it just doesn't move. In soccer the defense man is the off side line, and in hockey it's just the blue line. That's it.

Tim: I know.

Emmoe: Don't know.

Tim: It's like the whole flying thing when people are like, "Well, the air hits the wings and it goes over and under like a thermal sphincter." And I'm like, "I don't know.'

Elias: Did you say a thermal sphincter?

Tim: I did. I did. I said it. Sue me. Sue me. Stop listening to the podcast.

Chris: Please don't stop and send all your comments to timtimmons@gmail.com.

Emmoe: Please.

Elias: That's right. That's right.

Tim: Any who, Eli is a terrific songwriter. We actually wrote a great song that's coming on your new record. Coming up soon.

Elias: Yes. That song is out end of October.

Emmoe: Oh nice.

Elias: October 29th.

Tim: Well, this will be around there.

Chris: Cool. Well, there you go.

Tim: This feels right. But Eli was in a band before.

Elias: I was.

Tim: Called?

Elias: The City Harmonic.

Tim: The City Harmonic. And you guys had a song, I call it Amen. I know it's-

Elias: You can call it that.

Tim: ... the wrong title. People give me songs all the time and they're like, "I love the revival song." I'm like, "Well, that's not what it's called."

Elias: Yeah. That song doesn't exist.

Tim: Yeah, I should have called it revival song.

Elias: Yeah. Well that's absolutely what we should have done with Manifesto too.

Tim: Manifesto. Right.

Elias: So we should have called it The Amen Song because that would've been a sensible thing to do, but boy named Sue had to prove them all wrong.

Tim: God, it's so true.

Elias: So he made it complicated for no good reason.

Tim: So true. You guys do yourself a favor, I mean that song is so stinking great.

Chris: We listened to it the other day. Put it on in the car.

Tim: We did.

Chris: Jammed out.

Tim: Yeah. I mean, it's radical. First time I heard that I was like, "This is completely different from anything that I had heard when that came out." And you've had a bunch of other songs cone out since, but you do a bunch of things. You are also marketing nerd. You have agencies and stuff. I play G chord, that's about all I can do.

Elias: Yeah. I mean, that's basically what I pretend to do in about six different areas. Funny enough, actually the agency I own started before the band.

Tim: Really?

Elias: Yeah, so it was sort of a weird business. I can tell the story if you like, but basically I started-

Tim: We'll cut it out but it'll be great.

Elias: ... Yeah, that's great. Then I started 15 years ago and then ended up building a website for a studio in the Toronto area and doing their branding and everything. And instead of taking money I just bartered with them for studio time. And that's how we recorded the first EP including Manifesto. And then he did the second record as well.

Tim: That's awesome.

Chris: Did you pay him in money for that one?

Tim: Good question.

Elias: We paid him in money. We paid him in Nashville money for that one. A whole $4.

Chris: That's really good.

Tim: In maple jam?

Chris: That's right, we paid him in maple jam and boots. That was it.

Tim: That's how you do in Canada. So you've got your hand in a lot of different buckets. What was I supposed to say? I felt like I was going to say something inappropriate.

Emmoe: Baskets.

Tim: Baskets, bucket, they all work. They're all good.

Elias: Buckets is streams.

Emmoe: Streams.

Tim: You got your hands and your feet in a lot of different streams.

Elias: Yeah. Some stuff in the art world, music, marketing, ministry.

Tim: Because then you are a church planner.

Elias: Yeah, I've been involved in a couple of church plans. I don't want to give the impression that I've been the senior pastor at the front of a church. That's not been the case, but I've been involved in several. And was just recently part of planning one here in town for about six years.

Tim: And then you've got about 800 children?

Elias:

801. We had one yesterday.

Tim: You guys think I'm kidding?

Elias: We have five.

Tim: Five kids. That's a lot of kids.

Elias: Yes it is. When it comes to names, there's that thing where you know you're getting old and you try to figure out which one it is you're yelling. And that just started very early just because of the number actually.

Tim: One of your kids was here last night at youth group at my house.

Elias: Yes, and she adores Tim Timmons. She's a big fan.

Tim: We're BFFs right now.

Elias: Yeah. It's true.

Tim: She's pretty cool.

Elias: It's true.

Tim: It was awesome because your wife dropped her off last night at kid's houses. Every grade has had a different kid's house so she had dropped off three kids last night.

Chris: Oh my gosh.

Tim: All over town.

Elias: Youth group planning no matter how well is not designed for large families.

Tim: It's not.

Elias: You've got to go [inaudible 00:13:08]. And I had two at home so the logistics is really something.

Tim: Speaking of logistics.

Elias: Sure.

Tim: We are talking about practicing the presence of God.

Elias: Awesome.

Tim: That's in the 10,000 Minutes stuff. It's how do we practice the presence of God all week long and what does that even look like? You and I were teaching and singing at a worship conference and you started talking about the brain. I've got a lot of friends who teach on different things and I just love the support.

Elias: And we have a few who might have one once a month.

Tim: Right. And you were talking about worship in the brain and I was just mesmerized. I was like, "This is crazy." And not that we need to fully get into that, but I just wanted to get into some of your studies, because you're a really bright human.

Elias: Well, that's kind of you. Thank you.

Tim: What was your podcast that you were talking about doing?

Elias: Oh, somebody recommended it to me. They said that if I ever make a podcast, I should call it Smarter than Dumber which you can't avoid the kind of dad joke element of that.

Tim: It's genius.

Elias: I was thinking dumber is smarter but that's fine.

Tim: Dumber is smart. That's not bad.

Elias: I don't think. I think back to the who do you think you are thing in Canada. The listenership would be zero. Who's that?

Tim: So in your studies so far... And anybody who's listening, you can please disagree and let us know. And be offended, but just kind of actually just stick in it because it's worth listening to. What does it look like to practice the presence of God with our minds?

Elias: Oh wow. Well, I should say up front I'm not in any formal capacity a neuroscientist. So I am a long standing amateur when it comes to this topic, but I read up on it a lot. I really enjoy this area.

Tim: I mean, you're a total nerd as well. I mean, I think in a great way you're also a well-read nerd.

Elias: Yeah. I am a total nerd. And so when it comes to this stuff I like to get into the weeds of it and kind of get stuff figured out. So I think the thing for me started with kind of the relationship between the brain and music and kind of what music mechanically does within us. And then that sort of opened up this Pandora's box for me in terms of worship and what worship does in our lives. And so it's probably difficult for me to talk about. I mean, you could go all kinds of directions. You could talk about anxiety, you could talk about all kinds of things when it comes to the brain. But the area that I've probably spent the most time thinking about is really what it means in terms of what happens when we are together as the church? Or when we're singing together or that sort of thing, because it's actually pretty freaking remarkable.

Elias: It's interesting because I think it has a lot of theological implications for us too. So here's what I mean. I just think if we believe God made the world and we believe God made us, that on some level we can't learn things about the mechanics of the world that we live in, in our brains that God didn't on some level intend for us to find. So there's really that kind of very human element to what we do that doesn't mean it's not real. So before I kind of talk about how that works with worship, I almost feel like I have to preface that. Penn and Teller are still doing magic when they explain the trick. And in the same way the holy spirit can still be working through some of these things that we do, even if we can see and measure. Which we can some of the mechanics around what's happening. I feel like it's important to start there.

Tim: So practically what does that mean?

Elias: So in Matthew 22, you've got this, "Hey, how do we inherit internal life?" And Jesus says love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength. And the second is love your neighbor as yourself. The shorthand of it is that mechanically speaking, our brain to some degree literally does that in group singing. So it is kind of insane. So on one level, when group singing happens there are two hormones that are pumped into your system. Dopamine is the reward chemical. That's the one that's like, "Hey, good job, you should do that thing again." And people are pretty familiar with dopamine. Oxytocin is the other and oxytocin is what's sometimes called the love hormone. So that is what happens when you hold your baby for the first time. Your body floods with it when you prepare to have children later.

Elias: That whole thing is probably the activity that produces the most oxytocin. So there's a lot of that while singing is pretty high up there. Group singing is pretty high up there. So it bonds you, it deepens social bonds in a really meaningful way with the group that you're with. It increases affection and trust with the object if you will. There's a degree to which you were singing to God together while we together are bonded deeper and deeper in love with the object of song in a sense. And on top of that, just a few years ago, University of Bonn showed that group singing also increases altruism. So it's quite literally true that while we sing out loud together we're rewiring our own brains to do Matthew 22. To love God with our whole selves, to literally love our immediate church neighbors, but then also to go out into the world wanting to actually do the very thing as we leave. It's kind of insane.

Tim: So that's all in the brain?

Elias: That's just the mechanics alone.

Chris: Is that it?

Elias: Yeah, that's right. You could sing... You could get together and sing Hey Jude and that's still true. And so I think the thing which has all kinds of crazy implications for worship leading and worshipers.

Tim: Please, I would like to go there.

Elias: Okay. Well, I mean, it's sort of back to the thing I started with where what makes a worship experience a real experience? And sometimes we are tempted to take something that is a real experience we have and make that the official marker of its authenticity. So it's say something that you might call an ecstatic experience which frankly, of course we all adore that. Even many of us who've tried to think differently about how it works can still remember some point in our lives where there's nothing like that ecstatic moment. But the problem is those ecstatic moments exist in every faith or in almost every faith.

Tim: Because that's a built in mechanism.

Elias: That's a built-in mechanism thing. Someone can have that at Nine Inch Nails just as well as they have it at church. Now it's not as common, it's not as frequent. We have to at some point-

Tim: But I've had that. I've had that at a Martin Sexton show when I was younger.

Chris: The you too show man. I walked away thinking, "God, is Bono going to be the worship leader in heaven? What is it?"

Elias: Right. Well, that's kind of my point. That mechanism is there. It's built in. When that experience becomes the benchmark for authenticity and we experience it elsewhere, it begins to give us doubts about the thing that we thought was true because of it.

Chris: Got you.

Elias: So if it's not just this, then this other experience I had must cast out on the first one I had because it must have just been a thing.

Tim: Okay, make that practical. Like a person...

Elias: A person has a great worship experience and thinks, "My God is real because of [crosstalk 00:20:24] how I feel." And then they go somewhere else, maybe it's Harry Collier.

Chris: Harry styles.

Elias: Yeah. They've got Harry Styles and they're caught up in the group moment and the group dynamic, and that very same thing happens. If they believed that the feeling was what made it real and true then they're like, "Well, Harry Styles isn't God so maybe there isn't God." Or maybe there's this sort of collapse of... Or there could be very easily. So I think it's important for us as worship leaders to sort of take the genie out of the bottle a little bit. To sort of say we all believe the holy spirit does real things in our lives.

Elias: The problem is that outcome of that ought to be not necessarily, "We all felt great and cathartic." Although that is obviously a mechanism for good reason, but we ought to be looking when did we succeed as worship leaders? Well, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithless, and self control. That's when we're loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. If those things aren't the metrics for a successful worship thing and not just hairs on end, then we're really setting ourselves up and setting our people up for disappointment in the long run. Because the mechanisms are real. We can see them. Is that all there is to it?

Tim: Is that the metrics? I mean, it's almost the worship experience are metrics so often for that. Whether you are a leader or a person in the room is like, "Oh worship was so good today." I mean, I don't know how many times I've been told that and I always want to go, "Great."

Elias: Yeah. Well, and I think that's part of. It is like there's this weird relationship between... And that's sort of what I'm talking about with the doubt side of things where it's like, "Well, once we know it can be measured then it doesn't matter." And I just don't think that. I think it actually matters a great deal.

Tim: Right. So it's not throwing the baby out with the bath going-

Elias: That's exactly right.

Tim: ... this is a terrible thing. Actually we shouldn't even have this as a metric at all.

Elias: Not even that. Well, part of what doing a good job means is that. I mean, you look at how people make decisions. So they've done quite a few studies on this thing called split brain syndrome. So, that's where you have an injury and this is something that marketers have known by the way for a very long time. So if this sounds cynical or I'm full of it, I'm sorry. It's at this point pretty well known. People who have had their emotional center disconnected from their sort of conscious self by injury, those people are literally incapable of choosing. So the thing with which you actually make decisions is an emotional part of your brain. And some people have even called it the reptilian brain, which of course depending on your thoughts on evolution you can take issue with the name.

Elias: But the point is this, that we have this part of our brain in common with just about everything that has legs. And so the idea is that the actual choice making mechanism occurs prior to any part of the brain that has language or capacity for language. So, choice making is not always that rational. There's this sort of relationship between the rational brain, the thing we think we think with and our actions in the world. And yet that feeling, experiencing, trusting, growing, bonded instinct is crucial for what we actually do. So to that end we can measure it. We can see it's a mechanism and it's extremely important because if we don't have... A strictly stoic faith is one that doesn't choose to do anything good.

Tim: No movement.

Elias: There's no movement. Well, we're literally incapable. Or even in our stoicism, it's a bit of a fantasy. We've convinced ourselves that we're operating without emotion. But if it were true, we wouldn't actually be doing very much with it.

Tim: Okay. So how does this play out? I'm also curious about the... We've talked about this in many different ways, but what you learn about people with all your marketing stuff and the brain and Jesus people. And what does this look like to actually practice the presence of God? What's that look like on a brain level? What's actually going on there?

Elias: Yeah. Well, and that's something that is sort of similar with meditative practice too. I mean, there's been a lot of study on that. Frankly, probably more on meditation than there has been on Christian prayer. But people who pray for example tend to live longer, healthier lives. I mean, there's lessened anxiety and so on. So there's tons and tons of studies. You could easily Google neuroscience prayer, neuroscience meditation, and just be in that rabbit hole for hours and hours.

Tim: What did we learn about that?

Elias: Well, I just think that for one thing, that for all of our supposed information, revolution, and enlightenment, that the things that we've been doing for a long time do actually have benefits and are meaningful and important no matter how you measure it. So if you're a Christian and you think, "Well, I pray to be in communion with God." Great. And you want to practice the presence of God. That's me, I mean, I'm going around the world thinking... Maybe you've mentioned that on the podcast. I know brother Lawrence. I mean, there's this sense in which you're practicing the presence of God by trusting that he's the God of the pots and pans. I think that's really important. But at the same time even if you are strictly unaware of God or reject the idea entirely, everyone's starting to notice, "Oh, these practices alone are beneficial." And so that's kind of why I get back to the authenticity thing.

Tim: Okay. So whether they are with God, or just with Buddha, or with the cow outside, or with the tree outside.

Elias: There's a reason we do them.

Tim: These things work on a mechanical body, brain chemistry. They just work.

Elias: Right. And I think the important thing for Christians to recognize is that doesn't make them real or not real. Has nothing to do with it and I think that's one of the most important things. Our experiences are real, they matter, but they are not the sheer marker of kind of a thing's truthfulness.

Tim: Okay. So what makes the difference between practicing the presence of Jesus and practicing the presence with a tree outside?

Elias: Yeah. And this is where it gets a little more theological than scientific. I would say it's really about who we're becoming. I mean, I think the fundamental... And you and I were talking about this the other day on our walk.

Tim: It's was the best walk I've ever had in my whole life.

Elias: Really amazing.

Emmoe: He's like, "It's not today. Say not today."

Elias: Present company excluded, I'm sure it's because of the company you keep.

Emmoe: Of course.

Elias: I think the thing is I was raised to... And I think this is culturally true in terms of the time when Jesus lived and walked the earth. That discipleship, in other words becoming Christlike is quite possibly this point. In as much as for me as a person, being a disciple of Jesus means putting my whole self into being like Jesus and reflecting God into the world. If that's my central theological belief, that the point is participating in who God is, then all of these little practices and habits that make me more Christlike are crucial as opposed to optional. I think we have probably a system of thought that says something more like, "Well, if you agree with these six beliefs." And I'm not saying that doesn't matter, I actually think it does matter.

Elias: But my point is if you agree with these six beliefs, well, now somehow you are in this camp and not that camp. And yet you don't quite see that being held up on its own in scripture. You see this sense of things being judged by how you are when you are in the world. There's a degree of what you're becoming and who you're becoming. And to the extent that you are a lot like your rabbi if you will or a lot like Jesus. And so the fact that these mechanisms actually work should be encouraging. It should be like, "Oh, I'm becoming like the object of my worship over time." And that's true whether I'm doing the pots and pans or I'm in quiet prayer.

Tim: We have a ton of church all over the place that some are extremely charismatic and lean into this stuff. And some are not and almost anti that stuff. How do we see these things even with the brain? how do we reconcile these things?

Elias: Oh man. So I grew up in the Toronto area. I'm from Hamilton in the '90s if you don't know.

Tim: Right. Toronto Blessing stuff.

Elias: Yeah. Toronto Blessing stuff was everything. I mean, you look at Alpha and Holy Trinity Brompton in the UK, where did that kind of set that off? A trip to Toronto. If you look at Bethel, I mean it was a trip to Toronto. So there was sort of this big thing coming out of Toronto and you couldn't escape it where I was. I am theologically charismatic. I think where I've had personal experiences that are pretty negative has been sort of in the kind of shamanism side of it, where we treat the person at the front as the sacred holy man who has the answers. I think that's different. There's that sort of borrowed authority piece of it. And again, I say I actually believe God is speaking to us. I believe God speaks in supernatural ways as well.

Elias: However, if you're in a worldview that requires what we're talking about right now to be exclusive to Christian experiences, and you find out that it is not you end up with a real problem. And so I think that's part of it for me. You look at Judaism, you look in their history of their beliefs, there was some interaction with Greek thinking, but for the most part they were holistic. They saw the body and the person and the soul as kind of this intertwined mess of a thing. I mean, the debate between the Pharisees and the Sadducees was that the Pharisees thought people resurrected and the Sadducees thought this is all you got. Well, that's pretty telling in terms of the relationship between the spiritual and the physical.

Elias: And so I look at it that way and I think, "Man there isn't some distinct finding that I know of that would differentiate one from the other." Except to say to what extent are these spiritual experiences that we have interactions with our bodies and is that okay? And because I think you would have a MacArthur type look at that and see that's evidence that it's not the Holy Spirit working, but just your body. Well, that right there is... I mean, $10 word, a dualistic belief. He's saying it can't be real because it's material. Ironically, so are the charismatics who depend on that up borrowed authority to be important and meaningful and to speak into lives. They're also saying it's only real because it isn't material except that we know that it is. So there's sort of this...

Elias: We have a lot of chewing to do as the church in that sense I think. Because we are finding out more and more about people, and about how people work, and how we decide things, and how we form ideas, and all of it. We're learning especially in the last 10 years. And again, I say this as an amateur more and more and more and more about how people become what they are. And how people change from that and our experiences and our emotions and all the stuff we've been talking about. If the only option left to us in order to be faithful is to dismiss that. Then we're creating an absolute binary choice for the kids coming up who are going to go off to college and learn hard facts and go what do I do with that now? Well, I guess this is real and that wasn't." And I don't think it's fair and I don't think it's true.

Tim: But what does all this look like when you think about practicing the presence of God? With all just that you've studied, what's that practically look like for you?

Elias: It changes from season to season. I'll say like at this exact moment, it's been an extremely busy season and I'm disappointed in myself for how consistently I've done that.

Tim: Done what?

Elias: Well, just anything that resembles consistency. It's just been a mess of a few months. It's just life and it happens to all of us. What learning about this over time has done is helped me to relax a little so that I'm not operating out of guilt quite as much. I think this is useful. This is good. God wants to know me and I want to know God and that needs to be at the center of it. But I'll often lean into things like The Book of Common Prayer. Sorry. The Book of Common Prayer or different things like that to sort of... If I don't know what to say, if I don't know where I'm going, to kind of give myself a starting point. Or Lectio Divina or different practices like that. But moreover, I think from a moment to moment thing it's really just turning your attention. I think sometimes we think of this sense of worship being in everything as almost like manifest destiny.

Tim: Meaning?

Elias: Meaning that everything I was going to do anyway must therefore be worship, because everything is worship. And I actually don't think that's true. I think it's much more like being present. It's much more like a centering thing where everything that I experience and do affords me the opportunity to do it for God. But it doesn't mean that I am. There is an intentional presentness in the centering.

Chris: We've got to show up.

Elias: We've got to show up. That's exactly the right language. So just being here isn't worship unless I choose it to be so.

Tim: There is something really interesting here. That today I have a choice to be present with myself, with others, and ultimately with God. What if today we were just aware and practice choosing to be present? It's almost like us breathing in Jesus. I choose to be present today. What would choosing presence look like for you today?

Elias: Unless there's that a little bit of that practicing presentness.

Chris: I heard someone say the other day and I can't remember where, but they were talking about this thing and they said, "Well, if I go and I do X task, well, then I've just done that task. And it lived and died in that moment. But if I do that as a form of worship, if I show up and I am Christ, and I am loving this thing, then that moment lives." And if we could go on NT things and kind of talk about the eternalness of that moment. So what we do here matters far beyond now, but we've got to show up to be able to join kind of God in those moments and the kingdom really if you go all the way into NT to make it eternal.

Elias: Oh totally. One, I think really has some really interesting implications for pastors and worship leaders too, because there's a degree to which... And this is sort of that borrowed authority thing we were talking about. There's a degree to which sometimes we act as if we are spiritually special. People will use the word anointing about this and that's a whole another conversation. But there's this idea of the worship leader by default is a more sacred person than the dentist. I'm just like, "Well, I don't know how that can be." I think if the dentist is showing up and the worship leader is doing the job but not showing up, there's a degree to which the dentist is infinitely more holy in their practice than the worship leader is in theirs.

Elias: And again, back to the kind of brain science thing, there's sort of this element of talking about performance and worship where we sort of judge everything by the authenticity of the moment. And that gets a little weird too. That's partly why I say gives me peace to relax. And it's like, "You know what, this is a complicated thing." I'm a hot mess of reasons for doing whatever I do and it's okay and God knows that. It's by design apparently. So on some level I can relax in each moment I show up to God. I center on something outside of myself and my lived experience in scripture. I center on something that isn't just something I invented or a mirror of myself. And so I get really into history and that kind stuff. So that way I'm kind of anchored in these things even when they're dry or really deep rich experiences. Prayerfully and hopefully they're anchored.

Tim: Yeah. They're gifts, but they're not the point. They're not the anchoring.

Chris: The other thing I like about this is that if you understand this and you understand the universality... Is that a word?

Elias: That's a word.

Chris: Sure.

Emmoe: Let's go.

Tim: It sounds like a word.

Elias: Sounds like a word.

Chris: Of these innate responses that we have, it makes me think, well, if you're going to believe this... You've done your homework and you're going to die. It's not because you've felt this thing and it's not because of little electric impulses in your brain. But it's because you've really come to a decision about something. And I make jokes about the Methodist church sometimes when I do shows, because I love it so much. And I work there so I tell this joke about, we used to go on revivals and we knew the type of church we were in by the color of the carpet. And Baptists were red and Pentecostals were green and Methodists were gray. And only the two Methodists laugh and I'm like, "It's okay. I can tell."

Chris: But one of the things I loved about, it was the first time for me and my inheritance that I got into a form of faith that really thought about it more. The places that I've been to before were more based on feeling. Whether it was shame or whether it was joy, it was still a feeling. And so for the first time I was like, "Oh, we don't do altar calls." We just didn't do them and I came in and I was like, "Isn't that the point of church? Aren't we supposed to invite people to accept Jesus and have this whole moment?" And they're like, "We're not interested in this emotional thing." And I know there's a lot of faith traditions that dive even harder, but that for me was this first moment of there's more to this. And so what this is to me is an invitation for us to say if I believe these things let's dive in. Let me not run away because I know this about-

Elias: Don't let cynicism run the show.

Chris: ... But let me dive in and really figure out what I believe.

Elias: Totally. Totally.

Chris: And I don't want to offend anybody here, but I feel like at least in my scenario and where I grew up, we were given this thing where it was less about Jesus and more about our shame or protecting us from this thing. This eternal judgment and it was much less about who Jesus is. And so the emotion went there rather than to this love affection.

Elias: Totally.

Chris: And so I think it's aligning it in the right direction if I can say that.

Elias: Yeah. Totally. I think that's fantastic. Sometimes we're inclined I think in the west to talk about... If I know Tim, we've talked about individualism on this podcast. But sometimes we're inclined in the West see ourselves as the fourth member of the Trinity so each of us is like this accessory to God. And that's just simply not how it works.

Chris: Just photo bombing.

Elias: We're just like [crosstalk 00:40:15]. I mean, the Greek Orthodox talk about this as participation. It's much more a sense in which we know God through Jesus. We participate in the Godhead by our being the body of Christ. I mean, you could unpack that for days. But in essence I think it would help us to be like, "Oh, my identity is not that I am all of these things." As true as that is.

Tim: Right. I am a child of God, which is great.

Elias: Right. It's great. It's not harmful.

Tim: But not too loud in the mix.

Elias: But not too loud in the mix.

Chris: The Methodist would say the communion of saints. Something like that.

Elias: Yeah. Well, and I mean I've spent a lot of time in the Methodist Church and it's just as much a mix bag as many things. And that's sort of kind of why I bring that up, is there's sense in which it's almost as if reality itself might be Trinitarian. Where we are material, we are willful, we are physical. I mean, you've got this kind of spiritual sense. You've got this metaphysical. So that's not a theological statement so much as maybe it would be helpful if we saw our own life lives as maybe being a bit more like what we understand God to be than we often do.

Chris: Which is relationship.

Elias: Which is relationship and the kind of interwoven nature of those things distinct from one another and yet in communion.

Tim: Swish on that.

Elias: That's hilarious.

Chris: And it goes.

Emmoe: That's from the sports balls I think.

Chris: Yeah. Sports balls. I love hockey.

Elias: If you swish in hockey something's broken.

Tim: Yeah. I mean, I've read most of the people that you've read or you quoted.

Chris: You got them [crosstalk 00:41:51].

Tim: Most of those thoughts.

Elias: Yeah. You can still find them.

Tim: But I didn't.

Emmoe: The audio books.

Elias: That's right.

Tim: Here's the deal you guys. It's kind of like when I have other people speak to my kids and tell them something I've already told them. Nobody listened to me when I know all of it. I know about the brain.

Chris: Nobody's a prophet in their own town. You know [crosstalk 00:42:07].

Tim: You got to bring other people in.

Chris: That's right.

Tim: Canadians even then.

Elias: Oh gosh. I'll just do some accent translation in the process.

Tim: Yes. We're Canadian.

Elias: Sorry. Lots of so.

Tim: Okay, so now Elias, it's now time for the 10,000 thoughts.

Elias: Okay, cool.

Tim: And this is speed round so whatever it's doing to your brain, who knows? I don't know.

Elias: I have to be quick?

Tim: Yeah, not us.

Elias: That is not my gift.

Tim: We're just getting to sit here and totally mock. We can be quick with our mocking.

Elias: Okay. Fair.

Chris: We typically are.

Tim: Okay. Biggest fear.

Elias: Probably heights if I'm very practical. Very practical fear, heights I think but I'm intentional in going and doing the things.

Tim: Okay. So you push through it?

Elias: Not scared of flying, not any of that, but I totally have... In fact, my son got a VR and he has this game where the world kind of enhance itself as you turn the corner. And so there was one game... I don't remember what it's called. Some indie Russian developer guy made it.

Tim: Sure. Can you speak like the Russian developer?

Elias: That's right. But you turn the corner and then-

Tim: What's it called?

Elias: ... you're just facing over a chasm, right?

Tim: Yes. I'm done.

Elias: And I played this game and I quite literally panicked and fell to the ground. I grabbed my carpet and he was just dying of laughter of course. But I was scared enough of heights and I was like...

Tim: Oh, I get that. VR stuff's legit. I'm kind of like, "It's not. I mean, whatever kids. You're totally over exaggerating." And then I get in there in that little head thing and I'm tripping out. Bucket list.

Elias: Bucket list.

Tim: Skydiving?

Elias: Definitely not. That would be on the no list. I really enjoy travel. There's a lot of the world I'd like to see. I have a thing for the British Isles and could totally live in some small thing. In fact, if God is mean enough to me that I somehow outlive my entire family which would never happen, I would totally live in a monastery in the Swiss Alps and just be the guy that's like, "Oh, you need to go that way. Go over there. Go over there." But the truth is a lot of what I thought I would never do I did by 30. I never thought I'd be in a band that tours the world. I never thought I'd win an award. I never thought any of these things. Or at least I dreamed wouldn't it be amazing if? And I did them before I was 30 and so there's sort of this... After that it's kind of like I need a new list and that kind of thing. So I'm still figuring that out.

Tim: Go-to snack?

Chris: Maple spread.

Tim: Maple spread all day.

Elias: Maple jam. My go-to snack is probably Beer Nuts. That kind of thing like candy coated.

Tim: Can you say that?

Elias: I'm Canadian. I can say want I want. I mean candy coated nuts, that kind of thing. Really into M&Ms.

Tim: Yeah. Anything like that.

Chris: Are M&M's a Beer Nut?

Elias: No.

Tim: Apparently in Canada.

Chris: Adding to love Beer Nuts and I didn't know.

Elias: I'm adding that to the list. I'm thinking candy coated nuts, Beer Nuts, M&Ms. Love them.

Tim: Oh my gosh, that would be so great. I'll go get us some Beer Nuts. All we have are M&Ms.

Chris: That's exactly what I meant.

Emmoe: Peanut butter M&Ms.

Elias: That's right. That's right. That's the good answer.

Tim: Bad habit.

Elias: Bad habit. The ones that I'll sin.

Tim: I mean, gosh, do whatever you want.

Elias: I mean, how public is this podcast? It's out there? Both of your listeners would probably hear. I'm just Kidding. Probably biting my nails and I have a really bad posture. I have a back injury so my wife is constantly on me about that.

Tim: Well, that's what she called us about, was your biting of your nails.

Elias: Yeah. For the intervention.

Tim: Carefrontation.

Elias: That was fun actually.

Tim: Best song you didn't write?

Elias: Oh gosh, best in the whole universe?

Tim: I mean a best song that you didn't write. That doesn't really work. One of the best songs you didn't write?

Elias: Yeah. I mean, who doesn't love Blackbird. I love the intricacy of it, the simplicity of it.

Tim: I love Coldplay.

Elias: Yeah. Great band. Great band. Sting write that?

Tim: Yeah.

Elias: I think so. I think so.

Chris: Billy Joel?

Elias: Yeah. That's right. Billy Joel. Probably the real answer for me would be Your Song by Elton John.

Tim: Oh, weren't you so excited you thought he was going to say one of our songs?

Chris: Your song. I was like, "He's picked a Tim song over mine"

Emmoe: The Revival song.

Tim: Tim song and Elton John. So I'm just going to take that.

Elias: Actually played it for my wife at our wedding so it's a bit of a heartfelt thing. So that's why I [crosstalk 00:46:52] a song.

Chris: I couldn't play music. I was like, "We're just not going to have any live music because I'm not singing at the wedding." It's not happening. Did you sing at your wedding?

Elias: And do you mean you're the only one who can sing in a room? In any given room that someone else is singing you're out?

Tim: Yeah. The other day at the show literally I start my set and he's in the back going. (singing). And he's singing it out loud. He got a microphone himself and I'm like, "He can sing better." But it was a little arrogant.

Elias: Hey, front of the house. Front of the house.

Tim: Stupid. Last one. Pet peeves.

Elias: Well, probably the thing I talk about the most which is really geeky. And is the degree to which our ideas come from versus inform politics. That is a genuine pet peeve of mine. It's like I have these things and I grab that thing and now that's everything I think. And that [crosstalk 00:47:49].

Tim: Give me an example of that. Sorry.

Elias: I don't think we... Do we need real life examples?

Tim: Just give me one maybe on another side that you don't agree.

Elias: Yeah. For example... I have nothing.

Tim: Give a [inaudible 00:48:00] to one you could.

Elias: Well, I'm going to get myself in all kinds of trouble here. I think that the Christian faith for example, does not work neatly over political parties. I think that seems safe to say.

Tim: That's very safe to say and if somebody has a problem with that they don't need to be listening to this.

Elias: They're confused. And the degree to which people just act as if that isn't the case just drives me nuts. It stops conversation. It's like if we both say Jesus is who I say he is and who he says he is, then we should be able to start there and say now what are we going to do about that? And I think very often that's not what's happening. We're kind of in this... People like us do things like this political ideology thing and I just hate those conversations so much. I mean, that's the worst most not fun answer ever for that, but it is thing that drives me nuts.

Tim: And people dissing Beer Nuts speaking of nuts.

Elias: Well, yeah.

Chris: I like the peanut version, but they came out with the ones with the pretzel in the middle.

Tim: I just saw almonds. Somebody upstairs in my house got almond version. Are those Beer Nuts?

Elias: There's cashews now [crosstalk 00:49:11].

Chris: I just want to thank the Mars company for all the Beer Nuts.

Tim: Yeah. I just love the peanut butter ones.

Emmoe: Yeah. The peanut butter ones and the popcorn.

Tim: I mean I have dangerous.

Chris: Are there nuts though in those?

Tim: It's a peanut. It's a peanut I mean.

Elias: Does repeating something a second time make it true in this house?

Tim: Well, everybody go out and get your favorite Beer Nuts and get ready for...

Chris: Episode 28.

Tim: 28 next week.

Chris: Oh wow. Awesome.

Tim: Eli, thank you so much.

Elias: Thank you guys.

Tim: Where can people go to find what you're doing?

Elias: My weird name dot com, eliasdummer.com. Elias Dummer on Instagram, et cetera.

Chris: Nobody's taking that handle.

Elias: Nobody's taking that handle.

Tim: It's super cheap.

Elias: I have the benefit of being me on the internet. There's only one... Actually there's two. There's a guy in Brazil apparently whose name is Elias Dummer, but he's got a private Facebook account and that's it. I tried to sue him for my name, but it didn't work.