027: Be Awake To Others

Writer Savannah Locke joins The Experiment Podcast this week to talk about the influence of regimes, power under vs power over, and how practicing the presence of God is being awake to others.

This week’s Practice: Be Awake To Others

+ 027 Be Awake to Others - Savannah Locke Transcript

Tim: So everybody, I just started out this podcast, as I always do, trying to pawn off my dog or my snake, and Chris just jumps in. He totally got his own way. Like he basically is re-homing his dog now.

Emmoe: Yes, that was so fast too.

Chris: She's so cute.

Savannah: Do you guys hate your dogs?

Tim: Hates is... Yeah, I do. I have a love-hate.

Chris: Hate's an accurate word. Yes.

Tim: I love-hate my dog. Like I crazy love my dog, but I understand the idea of loving and hating because...

Savannah: There are two upstairs.

Tim: Well, we're house sitting for one. We're dog sitting? What are we doing?

Emmoe: Dog sitting. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim: Yeah. We're dog... [inaudible 00:00:35] knows about that.

Emmoe: Listen, not today. Not today, man. Let me wake up.

Tim: Anyways, so we've got this dog and she's really cute. Just I've got four kids and it just is so inconvenient. Like my kids, it's like, my gosh, they're my people. But my dog is not my people. And I'm sure people are going to turn this podcast off right now.

Emmoe: Yeah.

Chris: We should just make this... We should have an adoption moment.

Tim: Yes. A re-homing adoption moment.

Chris: And the first two animals up for adoption are our two dogs.

Tim: And what's your dog's name?

Chris: Pippy.

Tim: Pippy.

Chris: Yep.

Tim: Pippy. Gosh, if you guys want Pippy...

Savannah: And she truly looks like Dobby, the house elf.

Tim: Chris is now showing pictures of his dogs.

Savannah: Aww. No, Pippy's really cute.

Chris: Yeah. He didn't say she wasn't cute. She's real cute.

Savannah: Listen, I know, but Dobby looks like a naked cat.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, she's got hair.

Savannah: Yeah.

Tim: Everybody, the person that just said naked cat is Savannah Lock.

Tim: So, Savannah Lock, she is one awesome human. She's a theologian. She's an author. She's a blogger. She's a singer. Actually the new Faithful Project, you know, it's got Amy Grant, Ellie Holcomb. All these amazing women are writing these songs. So you can just go check out the Faithful Project, and it's amazing. Savannah is a deep well. This episode will definitely be challenging in a lot of great ways and pretty usual, pretty dang funny as well.

Tim: Hey, I just wanted to say a little shout-out to a few of you who have just jumped in to do a one-time gift or support monthly. I mean, it's from like $10 a month to more than that. So you guys, I just want to say thank you for those of you who have been giving. Thank you for those of you who just jumped in right now. We've got Sarita. I'm just going to say that. Hopefully that's how I say it. Sarita B. We've got Amy M. Christie H. Jim C. Amber A. Caitlin D. Ann D. Sherry G. Kind of like Kenny G, but I don't think he's actually jumped in to partner and to do this with us. But we are only funded by you. So you guys, thank you for doing this. And that just is such an encouragement to us, for all of you who have written us letters or who have emailed us just with encouraging words. So thank you for journeying with us in this 10,000-minute experiment. And I'm really hoping that this is really changing your week and you see Jesus in a bigger way, and you see yourself not just as an individual Christian person, but as part of this bigger community of Jesus people, as a beautiful force in this world. So please go to 10,000Minutes.com if you guys want any information or if you want to learn how to partner with us in the future. This is an awesome episode. Here we go.

Tim: Chris is still showing pictures of the dog, if you guys are wondering.

Chris: She's a little concerned there.

Tim: Oh, my gosh.

Savannah: That would be the adoption photo.

Chris: Yeah. She's like...

Savannah: And then the Sarah McLaughlin 'Arms of the Angel' would be behind that.

Chris: Totally.

Savannah: With an animated tear.

Emmoe: Oh man.

Chris: We changed our table today. So Tim and I are staring eye to eye.

Emmoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are on a date. This is going to be really awkward.

Tim: Well, yeah. I mean, we just spent 25 hours in a car together, but we were side to side.

Chris: Usually it's shoulder to shoulder.

Tim: And when we go on walks together, we're always side to side.

Chris: Shoulder to shoulder. This is going to be an uncomfortable amount of eye contact, and I'm going to lean into it.

Tim: I guess. He's not stopping, you guys. He's not stopping.

Tim: So Savannah, welcome to the table.

Savannah: Thanks.

Tim: And this is just what we do the entire time.

Savannah: It sounds like it, yeah.

Tim: We just are dumb.

Savannah: Timothy, I've listened to these podcasts.

Tim: You have?

Savannah: Yeah, I have. [inaudible 00:04:18] episode, Mike's episode.

Tim: How are you holding up? What's your favorite thing I said?

Savannah: Yeah, it's been an emotional journey.

Emmoe: It has.

Tim: It's been... Oh, I love that. Thank you. It's been so fun and good for our souls as well, because we're learning with people the whole time. So welcome. So what do you know? Why are you here?

Savannah: Timothy Howard is your middle name?

Tim: Yes, it is.

Savannah: Yeah. And then I can't remember either of your middle names. Give me a second. Chris, it starts with a Ka-ka-ka sound.

Chris: Oh, wow.

Tim: Yes, yes.

Emmoe: That's good.

Chris: That's close enough.

Emmoe: That's a real fan right now.

Tim: Right. Because didn't somebody say, "If they were all K's, that'd be a bad thing"?

Chris: It would be, but it's not.

Emmoe: Did you say that?

Tim: Nope. I think it was Mike. Could have been [inaudible 00:04:56].

Emmoe: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Tim: [inaudible 00:04:58].

Chris: Crap.

Savannah: What's your middle name?

Chris: Kyle.

Savannah: Kyle. That's it. And then yours had something with Mary backwards. No, this is your middle name.

Emmoe: Yeah, yeah.

Tim: Oh my gosh, Savannah.

Savannah: All of it's in my brain somewhere.

Emmoe: Oh, nice.

Savannah: It's floating. So this is my proof that I do listen to you guys.

Chris: Totally. I'm also impressed that you can retain, because I listen to a lot of podcasts and I don't remember.

Tim: Even ours.

Chris: Yeah. I'm like, "Ah..." I listen back to ours and I'm like, "Wow, that's pretty good." You know? I forgot.

Emmoe: So proud that you spoke. You're like, "That was awesome, Chris. Yeah, nice."

Tim: It's [inaudible 00:05:33].

Savannah: Yeah. [inaudible 00:05:35] That's right.

Tim: [inaudible 00:05:40] I think it's so pretty. I'm into it.

Savannah: It's beautiful.

Emmoe: You guys are so kind.

Tim: No, I'm actually serious.

Emmoe: I know. Just words of affirmation are at the bottom of my love languages, and so I'm trying to resist him, but I was like...

Tim: Okay. I think you look really pretty today.

Emmoe: Sweet.

Tim: That's it. That's all we got.

Emmoe: Thank you though.

Tim: Okay. So, besides listening to every single one of our podcasts and being our number-one fan on Facebook...

Emmoe: You're getting a t-shirt after this.

Chris: She won the contest?

Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris: Yeah. If you emailed enough...

Tim: It was SL. The letters were SL. I never thought about that.

Emmoe: Oh, that's so good.

Savannah: Oh, I had four phones out. I was calling when the [inaudible 00:06:22] happened, and I made my way in.

Tim: Oh my gosh. This is the best. It's all being revealed. Besides listening to our podcast, what do you spend your days doing? Because you do a lot of things, and you're real bright, but you're fun. You've got so many great gifts. You can go deep on things. I just... I'm a fan of you. So, what do you do other than listen to our podcast?

Savannah: Than listen to your podcast, which does take up a lot of my time?

Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're on 27 this time. This is 27, right?

Savannah: This is episode 27?

Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Savannah: Yeah, so that's 26 hours of my time.

Tim: Yeah. Yes.

Savannah: I write. I write for a couple different people like blogs and devotionals, Bible studies, stuff like that. Then do songwriting, lead worship. I also work for a theologian named Jared Byas who has a podcast called The Bible for Normal People.

Chris: You work for Jared Byas?

Savannah: Yeah.

Chris: How do I not know this?

Tim: Come on. That's why she's on here.

Chris: I've become obsessed with The Bible for Normal People.

Savannah: Aww. Yes.

Chris: Like I've been driving. I'm going to fan boy. Is that a thing?

Emmoe: Yeah, yeah.

Savannah: You're just going to be a fan. Yeah.

Chris: I like found it some way, probably through [inaudible 00:07:28] like a random book suggestion. And I've bought every book.

Savannah: Yeah. They're great.

Chris: I've listened to probably a hundred plus.

Savannah: They're amazing.

Chris: Like since July. It's crazy.

Savannah: Oh, that makes me so happy. Yes.

Chris: Tell him I say hello.

Savannah: I will.

Tim: So, what do you do for him specifically?

Savannah: So he's an interesting person, but like you were saying, what do you do? And that's kind of this story of my life, in the words of One Direction. But just like seven different things. So Jared also does that. He has his own business. It's called Common Good, and it's a family business advisors group. And so I help him with that. He also has...

Tim: What's that do?

Savannah: He helps family businesses move from one generation to the next, because a lot of them fail in that gen one to gen two transition.

Tim: Okay.

Savannah: I was really surprised. Like over 60% of businesses in America identify as family businesses, which I would not have guessed. So he does that and I help him with that, just like doing random stuff and being a people person, which is a good thing.

Savannah: And then the second thing, he also has books. So I have just organized and did a whole tour for him, which was really fun. And then he also has his podcast, The Bible for Normal People. And he just launched a mini series called How to Disagree, which based on his book Love Matters More. And so the podcast that we just did, it was really fun. I actually vetted all of these people, and we chose six different people who were couples or father/daughter, or friends who disagree about really important things.

Tim: Wow. I love it.

Savannah: About politics, about religion. We talk about vaccines, about everything, racism, all of it. And so we just did a mini series on that at the launch last week. And so I just kind of help his life run.

Tim: Called?

Savannah: It's called How to Disagree.

Tim: How to Disagree.

Savannah: By Jared Byas, yeah. So, that's what I also do for work. Yeah. I do all those things. Oh, and I have a tiny house.

Tim: And a tiny house.

Savannah: Yes.

Tim: Anything else? What else do you do?

Savannah: Tim, Tim, what don't I do?

Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's like a Monday. So, what about the rest of the week? Yeah, yeah. Boring. We're one hour.

Savannah: Yes.

Tim: And you make out...

Savannah: With my husband.

Tim: Yes, yes, which is so great. I mean, that is an appropriate question to ask.

Savannah: With my husband of six years.

Tim: Todd?

Savannah: Yes. Todd.

Tim: Yes. I've never seen it, but I...

Savannah: He is the the light of my life.

Tim: He is a pretty great human.

Savannah: He is an amazing person, yes. Uh-huh (affirmative). So yeah, I'm married to Todd, make out with Todd. And I have two dogs, Prudence and Bentley.

Tim: And Pippy.

Chris: And Pippy's on the line.

Tim: And Lucy.

Chris: It's going to be great.

Tim: And a pet snake.

Savannah: And Pippy and Lucy are on the way, yeah.

Tim: And you said you had an aversion of snakes as well?

Savannah: It's not that I have an aversion to them, but if given the option between a snake and a dog, I just feel that the wise choice would be a dog.

Tim: What about both?

Savannah: Yeah, that is a great question. And, you guys, I'm in school. I forgot. I'm getting my masters.

Chris: In what?

Savannah: Anabaptist... Literally what, I don't even know. I was like, "What do I do with my time?" when you were saying that. And I was like, "Oh, I'm in class on Mondays and Tuesdays getting my masters in theology in Anabaptist history."

Tim: See? This is why I was like, "She's going to come on here," because she knows some stuff.

Chris: That's cool.

Savannah: I'm starting to get grounded, everyone. So I just want to apologize for the first 20 minutes of this whole thing.

Tim: No, you're great. We're great. We're great.

Savannah: I'm starting to drop in. We can just edit all of it.

Tim: We're fine. We're doing great. We got nothing but time right now.

Savannah: Yes, yes.

Tim: So we're still in this long series on practing the presence of God and what does that look like? It's good for us to talk about the stuff in our heads and what we know and what we think. But what's it look like to actually live that out? So I guess what do you know about that, about practicing the presence of God? What do you see as you're talking to all these different people and studying all this stuff? How's that for a broad question?

Savannah: Yeah, no, but it actually feels really specific to me. One of my classes in June was about just the church and what our purpose is as the church. And one of the books we read was called Faithful Presence by David Fitch, who was actually my professor as well. And he talked a lot about practicing the presence of God, and it kind of changed the way that I perceive being in the presence of God and being aware and awake to the presence of God. And it did adjust my life in a lot of ways, in June, of starting to wake up every day and not just flow into the rhythm of, he calls it, the regime where we're in, like all of these different regimes of like anything from capitalism to like the regime of your workplace or whatever. And we are surrounded and inundated by these things that want our attention. And so to wake up and to put our intention into the kingdom, and to being aware and awake to the presence and the activity of God.

Savannah: And so, in June, when I had that class, I kind of left and I thought, "Okay, what would it look like for me to actually wake up every day and say, 'Okay, God, what are you doing in the world? And how can I be awake to it? And when I witness things that are happening in the world, how can I slow down enough to open up space for you to move?'" And so that has honestly... I mean, I've listened to the podcast, so I know that you guys don't mind getting serious, but it's honestly been a pretty painful experience because I think when you're awake to the presence and the activity of God, God is always with the broken. And Todd, my husband, calls me Eagle Eye for this reason, because even when we're driving in the car, I'll just look and I'll be like, I'll see people on the side of the road, and I'm awake to them. And I'll be like, "Hey, we need to stop and help this person." And we'll stop and we'll help people. And when you do that, you're entering into these stories. And it's not that you're entering in as a rescuer or a savior, because God's already working in their lives. But you are entering in as a witness to their lives. And there's something that's really vulnerable about that and requiring of that.

Savannah: And so when I think about practicing the presence of God, that's what I think about. I think about paying attention to where God's moving and being willing to slow down and witness it.

Tim: Okay. So you said... I love that. I mean, we could not be more in agreement with that, so we don't have to disagree on that and practice disagreeing. You know? I think you're an idiot. I'm going to be real honest. Like don't take it personally. I think you're an idiot. But you said that, "To be honest, this has really been hard for me." So, what's been the hard part?

Savannah: The hard part is being in pain, being with people in pain.

Tim: Okay. So, that's been the deal.

Savannah: Yeah. And I think last week, actually, Todd and I were driving to see our friends in Kentucky. And when we were almost to the venue... It was like a four-hour drive. I saw this woman on the side of the road, and she was crying. And I just felt prompted by the Holy Spirit to stop. And so we turned around, and I jump out of the car, and we entered into a crime scene, and we didn't know it. And we entered in, and we actually witnessed someone take their own life. And we were with this woman while she was grieving this person's life being taken, like in the immediate aftermath. We were the ones that called the police. We saw the crime tape. We saw the body being taken away. And all of this trauma and tragedy that happened, because not only were we paying attention, but because we were willing to slow down and be a witness to it; that experience, like it's an emotional experience. We've been in grief counseling and in trauma counseling for the last couple of weeks because of that. And then to have to process the violence and the sadnessof someone taking their own life, but then also the immediate grief after that, it has though shifted my perspective on, I don't know, like the incarnation and what does it mean for God to be with us?

Savannah: Like Emmanuel, God with us, I think I always perceive that as God watching us like I watch a movie. So God witnessing our lives like I watch Ozark. But that experience shifted everything from me where I realized, no, God didn't witness our pain like we watch television shows. God actually got into our pain, and it affected him in the same way that experience affected me and Todd. And it was so transformative to realize that not only does Christ do that for us, but also when Jesus says, "And you will be my witnesses," that's what our whole mission is, is to go and bear witness to people in their pain, so that not only are they not alone, but that we can actually open up space for the Holy Spirit to move and to do healing. So, I mean, that's not easy. Who wakes up in the morning and says, "How can I bear witness to other people in their pain today?"

Tim: Yeah. I'm even thinking of the word 'bear,' meaning like the stick that holds up.

Savannah: Yes.

Tim: That's interesting. I've never thought about that, even bearing witness.

Savannah: Yeah. And witness statements. Like when the police said, "What is your witness statement?" And it hit me. I was like, "Oh, and you will be my witnesses." And the idea of like this is what practicing the presence of God is, is bearing witness to God's activity in the world. And God's activity in the world flows in brokenness and in pain. And so I think that there's a reason why all of us are so distracted, is because it's hard to be in those and it's not easy, and it requires a lot. And it cost us something to witness that.

Savannah: But also the flip side being, and a lot of healing has been happening around this, is that the flip side being that person who took their own life didn't die alone. Like Todd was with them. And then also that woman didn't grieve alone because I was with her. And so there's like the flip side of the healing piece of it too. So, that's what I think of.

Chris: Interesting to me. I just have this image of you being aware and awake enough to the presence of God that it could speak to you in that moment and say, "Hey, stop." And then what happened when you said yes was then you became Christ to those people. And so by you being awake to the presence of God, you became the presence of God for someone else. And it makes me think, God, how good you are. Like I'm trying to put myself in that woman's shoes and thinking, "Oh, this is God right here with me." And to think that that's how he cares for us. Like, "Oh, there's no one here. Okay, there's that car. Come on. You're coming over here, and you're going to be my presence for these people now." It's pretty incredible.

Savannah: And we've like, Todd and I, have had so many of these random experiences, not nearly as intense as that one. That one obviously is on my mind the most because it was so recent. But ever since this thing in June, this class where I've just said, "Okay, God, I'm going to be awake and aware of this," we have been seeing just the most random things. And part of me wants to say, "Oh, God's bringing all these things into our lives." But then I'm like, "No, this stuff's happening and my eyes are just open to it."

Savannah: Like even a couple of days ago, Todd was like, "I'm going to put blinders on you when we drive in the car." He was like, "Play Tetris." But we saw this man who... It was the weirdest thing. This man was just sitting by his car, like on the ground. And then this woman was sort of walking by. And I was like, "Love, I'm so sorry, but I feel like we need to stop and help these people." And this man had just had surgery on his legs and couldn't lift himself up, and he had fallen when he got out of the car. And so we just went and helped him get into this car. And it's one of those moments where Todd got in the car and he was like, "Yeah," he was like, "I don't think that these things are happening more. I think we're just noticing them more."

Tim: Okay. So, how do you invite, how are you invited into having a deeper awareness? Because we know these things. "Oh my gosh. It'd be great for me to do these things." And I love that idea that it's not like God's really bringing more of these things into our lives. No, they're probably always here, just like pain. So, how did you... Like what were the steps or what was the practice that you began to do to help you be more aware?

Savannah: To get tangible. So, one thing that my professor talked about, he has this little life group thing that he does every week on Sundays, which actually my life group does every week on Sundays too. And he said that before they start the meal, they just all stop for a second and say, "God, help us be aware of your presence and this meal, or help us be present to your presence in this meal." So, "present to your presence." So, that alliteration just stuck with my mind. And so before I do anything, before I walked in here, I said, "God, help me be present to your presence in this podcast." And it's sort of like this like brain hack thing where, before you do anything, you say in your head... You set your mind up to see what's there.

Savannah: And I don't know; it's so strange because it's like there's a lot of language in the New Testament about this idea of a veil. But I think so many of us do live with like a veil over our eyes where we're not present to anything or not aware of anything. So it's more being aware of the blinders that are on there and then saying, "God, help me be present without the veil. Let me be present to what you're doing." And so I think for me, it's just been a lot of like brain hacking before I do anything, just like verbally saying out loud, "Let me be present to your presence, present to your presence." So, that's been helpful for me. Is that practical enough?

Tim: Not really. No, that will be our practice this week, for sure. So, what stops us from being aware? I mean, we all want this. This is why I began to write this X on my wrist every day, was like... But so what stops you from being aware?

Savannah: My phone. My phone is probably the number one thing, especially if I wake up and it's the first thing I get on in the morning. I think that comparison, which I know you guys have been talking a lot about on the podcast, but the comparison piece can also get me when I get swept away. And also this language of regime. I know that sounds like such a strong word. It sounds like something from Star Wars. But that's actually been helpful for me to realize that there are these kind of the powers that be at play and these regimes that we're constantly being swept into without even recognizing it.

Savannah: And I think for me, one of those things, like money, money is a huge thing where it's like, if you wake up every day and you're thinking... Like we've been trained to think, "How can I make more money so that I can, in some invisible year down the road, retire and never have to worry about money again?" But what that ends up doing is perpetuating us to just strive, strive, strive, strive, strive, instead of slow down. Because what do you do when you're resting? You're not making money. So I think that's a big one that I've been thinking through a lot and being convicted about a lot, is like the idea of like we live in a capitalistic society, and that's fine. There are benefits to that. The negative side is that our bodies and our lives become currency rather than a gift to enjoy. And so I think for me, recognizing that time is not money. Like un-training my brain to think that time is money. Time is not money. Time is a gift. And time is something where I can enjoy being in the present with God, presence of God.

Savannah: And so, for me, things like that have been really helpful, just to recognize what's sweeping me away and try to untangle those.

Tim: Yes. So much untangling. Go more on regimes.

Savannah: Okay. So, it's intense language, but...

Tim: Yeah. No, no, no. But is there a synonym for regime that would make...

Savannah: I kind of like the idea of regimes. The powers that be is another thing. So Walter Wink is an author, and he talks a lot about the powers that be. And he essentially talks about... He's dead now, so he doesn't talk anymore. But he wrote about how each thing, each culture, microculture that we engage with, has a power behind it. And we can basically get swept up in those things, or we can continue to align with the kingdom of God. So I think that's what regimes are, are just recognizing the powers of these different cultures. And it can be any culture from CCM. Christian music has its own powers that be, its own culture.

Tim: So get real practical. Like what would go? I mean, if you guys have thoughts, I just want to know what are these regimes? Because I love this idea. Like let's just call them out.

Savannah: Racism.

Tim: Yeah.

Savannah: Capitalism. Patriarchy. CCM is one, like the Christian music industry.

Tim: The celebrity...

Savannah: Individualization. Celebrity Christianity. Things like that. But if you guys have any more... But just things that are... They're hard to name actually because it's like trying to name water as a fish. Like you don't know it.

Tim: Right. Do you guys have other thoughts of what other regimes would be?

Savannah: How many more people can we offend?

Tim: No, no. But I mean, these are kingdoms. They're like actual systems of thought. And I mean it's almost... Could you say that they are all politics? Each of them have their own political system, like laws.

Savannah: I think politics is a system. Yeah, for sure.

Tim: Yeah. I mean, each of these have their own politics is what I'm saying.

Savannah: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I get what you're saying. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim: You know, like the money one, this plus this plus this equals this. Like the law is work hard, pull your boots up, all the things. These are the rules to make this system work.

Savannah: Yeah. I am what I do. That's a huge one because we've a commodity. And I've even been thinking too that there's a thing called the attention economy. Have you guys read about this?

Tim: Mm-mm (negative).

Savannah: So, where we're entering into, because of the information age, we're entering into an attention economy where our attention is the highest value. And even that, our attention being the highest commodity, that companies and tech is another powers that be, another regime, that all of this stuff is designed to keep our attention. And yeah, that's another big one. But if you guys think of anything else...

Tim: So yeah, it's fascinating.

Savannah: Social media is another one.

Tim: Right, right. All the politics of my phone. I mean, which app has my attention? Which newsfeed has my attention? So, I mean, one of our practices is breathing in Jesus, breathing out, "You have my attention."

Savannah: So good. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim: So, but for this, I mean, just how do we help each other just be more aware of these different systems, regimes? Is there a way that he or you have learned to kind of see stuff? I mean, one is just saying, "Jesus, open my eyes to all the different regimes."

Savannah: Right. Maybe growing in familiarity with Jesus, like the contrast that can happen and the way that the kingdom works, like the power under this, the Philippians 2-ness of Jesus and the operating in the kingdom.

Tim: Okay. What's that mean? Say that again.

Savannah: Like in Philippians 2, where it says...

Tim: I have it all memorized. Just these two probably don't.

Savannah: This is for the people who aren't Christians; that Jesus didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped, but took on the nature of a servant. And the idea that Jesus, the whole mode of operation for Jesus, and now for the kingdom... Like 1st John talks a lot about how this is how we know love: that Jesus laid down his life for us. So now we ought to lay down our lives for one another. This is all power under versus our mode of operation, even broadly, and all of the regimes' power over. Like that's our mode.

Savannah: And so I think even for someone very practically, right now, to recognize in their own lives, where are you tempted to exert power or authority in order to get your way or to advance your agenda? Because that is not operating in the mode of the kingdom. And we convince ourselves it is. We convince ourselves all the time that it is, even in Christian circles where it's like... The mega church is a great example of this, of like, "Hey, if we got really big and really alluring, and then we can like get in into politics, and we can help use our influence for the kingdom by exerting dominance in these areas." But actually Jesus is the opposite of that, where he says, "Actually I'm going to lay down all of my rights and subvert the whole entire thing with the power under."

Savannah: So, that's where I would say to start, is just recognizing where are you so tempted to exert your power? And it could be something as small as in your family. Like do you feel like you need to get louder? Do you feel like you need to dominate with your intellect or your gifts? Do you feel like you need to dominate with your gender, your experience? In those situations, that is something that you need to consider aligning with a different kingdom. Yeah.

Tim: With your silence, with my coldness. I do that. Yeah.

Savannah: Your coldness? Yeah, talk more about that.

Tim: No, I mean, you're just saying always like it's over power, but sometimes I can just do that with my silence or my avoiding or...

Savannah: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm not great at like the practicals, I will say. I'm definitely more of an ideas person.

Chris: I think that can get practical though. Like when you think about Jesus, he lived in and worked in, like what you were just saying, is a very practical thing. Jesus lived within a regime, within a system, and he gave us an example of how to practically live our lives within these regimes that we live in, whether it's the political or the national, or within the four walls of our house, little regimes that we've built. The practicality is being aware, being present to God. And then in those places, I think there's a real practicality of saying, "I'm not going to assert my dominance, but I'm actually going to serve and find a different way." That's what I hear you saying, and that's what see you doing in these places when you're seeing a need and you're saying, "I'm going to serve in this place." That's subverting the culture. That's subverting the regime. And that's being aware of presence, and then being presence and present. So I think sometimes to be in the presence, we have to be present. And maybe not sometimes; all the time. And so that's what I'm seeing you. Like the regimes are asking us to be non-present.

Savannah: Yes. Mindless.

Chris: Right.

Savannah: Yeah.

Tim: Or present to them.

Chris: Yeah. But even then, are we? You know? It's like I'm scrolling through a thousand things. It's like, "Well, okay, on to the next thing, on to the next thing, on to the next thing." And I don't even think we know what is true and what is right, and what is what anymore. So it does make us like these mindless little things.

Tim: This is such an interesting concept of the regime. It's almost like we have these cultures that are hitting us. I mean, I have a culture in my home. My phone has its own culture. There are all these regimes and groups that are fighting for my attention all the time. So I guess some of the questions that come up are: What are my regimes that I've inherited? What are some of the cultures and the regimes that I've bought into? And then what are some of the regimes and cultures that I've built and I've created, that are now mainstays in my life? All these things are shaping us. And then in turn, they're shaping the people around us. So it's worth rethinking our thinking on the regimes that we've either inherited, we've bought into, or we've created.

Savannah: But I think what Fitch has really encouraged us to do in school, but then also lived in his own life, is that idea of just like presence and of discerning and doing things within the context of community. And so I think versus thinking in terms of like one regime to the next, instead slowing it down and getting really local and saying, "What are we going to do in our community to discern where the presence of God is, and how we can embody that?"

Chris: Okay. Like kingdom, regime, is like the 2021 version of this like a brand? Like we're all on Instagram trying to create our brand at some point. So we've created these like mini kingdoms of ourself. And I mean, maybe I'm in a little bit of a bubble because I'm an artist and I have to do this thing, but it still feels like I don't even understand every 20-year-old with a TikTok. But that seems very much like a, "I want to be internet famous. I'm trying to create this thing, whatever it is." But I'm just thinking through that in real time. Like have we all created our own microcosms of these regimes and kingdoms in our own lives, that's taken us away from being present in real life, in the presence of God?

Tim: Is there one that you would say that you're thinking of specifically for you, like in your own life?

Chris: I mean, I think it's as broad as that. And one of the things I've had to do lately is get someone else to do my social media, which helps me a little bit, so I'm not stuck on it as much right or concerned with it. I don't know how many like 'whatevers' did this get. And so that's helped. The nature of it is then, well, I've replaced it with something else that's probably just as bad. That's probably mine. But it just hit me as like, well, maybe we're also creating these things. We're not just the product or in the midst of it, but we're actively creating our own forms of the same thing.

Savannah: I mean, I think if you zoom out though, why are we creating those brands? It's because of the regime. You know what I mean? If we were not being inundated constantly that being famous is a gift, first of all, or that being famous is an end goal, or being wealthy is an end goal, and that these things are achievable if only you get X amount of followers or X amount of... You know, we're being taught this stuff all the time. And so I think that there's a part in which, yes, we create our micro-kingdoms, which is obviously true. And it's also that wouldn't be happening if that wasn't part of a broader system that was benefiting from it. And so yeah, I think you're on to something, and I think that there's like the broader narrative that we're just totally swept into. But I don't even know that we could live otherwise right now.

Chris: Yeah. So then that makes me think: How do we be present in this thing that we know is not going to change, right? So how do we meet Jesus in those places? What are the practices that we put in place to be able to find him and be aware of it?

Savannah: Right.

Emmoe: I have thoughts. They're everywhere. But I think sometimes we do create certain things, spaces, brands, because we are responding to the regime, or we're responding in some way that we're like, "We want to create a different place where people do belong, and people do find the Jesus they're not finding there." But what you are inviting us into is to participate in what's already happening. And so sometimes the divide is, you know, cancel culture. It's whatever it is that's like, "Well, I'm just going to make something else that is Christ centered, but it's still very from my filter, controlled by me, all these things." And so I think it's not so much... Like we can easily cancel everything, and I think that's what happens, sadly, in the church. That doesn't sound like God is present, so we're not even going to bother with it. But to be present is to be in the places we don't think God is in. Right? And so it's almost like it's not so black and white.

Emmoe: I think for me to just cut out the gift of trying to represent Jesus by building a space for people, but it's like a double-sided coin. But how are you also present in the places that feel uncomfortable to be present in? We have hundreds of thousands of influencers on Instagram, and so we could easily be like, "Why is there so much time wasted on that?" And then we have a lot of advocates who also put the same effort and time into their brand and their vision and what they're trying to do. And I think it's interesting to know how can both happen to where we don't cut out a full regime, let's say social media, because we don't know how to represent Jesus in it, but to actually find creative ways to do it. So I think [inaudible 00:35:41] these brands are trying to be creative and be present in a regime that's trying to steal our attention.

Savannah: What you're touching on is the principle of proportionality, which means that for whatever capacity something has to be good, it also has to do harm. And so what you're saying is: Do we need to cut out... Or what I hear you saying is: Do we need to cut out the whole thing? Because there's also good happening too.

Emmoe: Right. I think the danger is to cancel something, right? There's some things that I'm like, "Yes, that's not even of God's character. That's different. That's an actual thing that is anti-love." And then there's other things that are like, "I think it had a purpose of love, and we're in the world, and it's been tainted." And so we're trying to be present in those things. I start to get curious when it's easy to just be like, "All of these things are bad, and I need to find what's good." And then we start to create these brands that are like my mini good version, my mini good version. And we were trying to invite people into it, but you're saying these things are bad. There's also really good opportunities and really good things that are happening. So I'm going to go into that space instead of try to create my own good version of something.

Savannah: My highest gift is prophet and then teacher. So, the prophetic part of me always does tend to want to say, "Look, let's burn the home and go down. Let's burn it all down because they're..." And it's a good thing I think because I feel that, like literally since I was born, I had an ability to discern when something fishy was happening. And that is like my tendency is to do that. But then also there's like the shepherd and the pastoral gift, which it sounds honestly like is what's coming out of you, which is saying like, "Hey, hold on a second. We don't have to burn this whole thing down because there's still people who are trying to do good in the world and all that stuff." And so I think that there's also just like... This is where perspectiveism comes in, where everyone has a different perspective. And pluralism comes in too, where like there's no more where we have one single culture where all of us even look at the same word in here, the same thing anymore.

Savannah: So there's always going to be a variety of opinions, and it's just a total melting pot of conversations and opinions and regimes and cultures. And my tendency, 100%, which is what I think you were picking up on, is to be like, "Let's burn it all down." I'm like, "Let's take it all down," because to me, that feel so liberating and to help people see, like freaking prophet Jeremiah, a city going up in flames, and to be able to see and draw attention to the things that are just grasping for our attention, over our hearts. And we don't even realize it. Like if people actually gave enough time to think how much money takes their attention, affection and desire, I think it would startle people, if they were able to really witness it. And so I think that there's such a gift in that. But then also, yes, when you burn the whole thing down, you lose people in the process. So it's a good thing that we have shepherds and pastors here as well.

Tim: Without you pushing and prodding and going, "You guys, do we not see this thing?" We would be like, "Well, let's just keep loving everyone." But then without this tempered, you know, "She's a toe, you're a finger," whatever this is, and without the whole of all of us, we're not really beautiful. We're just extreme. I mean all of us with whatever we do.

Savannah: The extremities. Exactly.

Tim: So, if we're all practicing... What'd you say? If we're present? If we're present to the presence of God, and we are actually representers of God, then we are his body, all of us. And if we are all doing this together, we are a powerful force. But alone in our individual Christian thing, just it's about me. Trust the Lord with all your heart, Tim. Which is true, but that's actually not written to me, nor is it an invitation to me. It's like, as a whole, if all of us are trusting the Lord with all of our hearts, we are actually a powerful body, or else we're just a finger walking around.

Savannah: And that's where it can get really revolutionary to me too. Like if people would be willing... And this has happened in my life, like I mentioned. My life group, we're about to hit the four-year mark where we've met every Sunday. Well, that's a lie. We don't meet in the summers. And I want to be truthful.

Tim: Thank you.

Savannah: I want to be truthful. But on Sundays we meet. And the idea...

Tim: I asked Todd, I said, "Hey Todd, how often do you guys meet?" I asked him before this. And he said, "She's going to say every single week."

Savannah: I was lying, if anyone is going to fact check this, yes. No, but with that life group, that has transformed my life more than literally anything I've ever learned in school or anything. But guys, what it was is a willingness to interconnect my life with other people in a way that is very uncomfortable, where we are so trained to believe, "If I'm going to make this choice, I don't need to ask anyone else about it, or I don't need to let anyone else in on it. Or if I'm having a fight with my friend, it's just between us two." But when you're willing to actually end her into a community, which is literally the Christian life... Christian life cannot be lived on an individual basis, period, period, period, period. It has nothing to do with salvation. But in terms of actual Christian life, it cannot happen on your own.

Savannah: But I really wasn't living that way until I started this life group. And then I realized, "Oh, I have been missing out on actual community living." But there's a discomfort there that we all reject and resist because we want to be individuals. But even down to like.. I had a fight with my friend earlier this year, and we just could not get on the same page. So, what did we do? It was so uncomfortable, but we freaking went to the life group, and we opened it up and we said, "Guys, we cannot get on the same page. We cannot meet each other." And through that, we had the support of these other people who could come in and help our relationship heal. And we had the trust there that they were able to actually be for both of us. And all of that to say, have you heard of that happening often? No.

Chris: Not in 2021.

Tim: Yeah, yeah.

Savannah: No. And because there's also, obviously, there are potential ditches on both sides of that. But all of that to say, I think that when you think of regimes and things like that, there are positives and negatives everywhere. But actually, while I enjoy thinking about that, that can sometimes keep us from just moving and participating. And so I think that a huge thing in terms of individualism, if people wanted to get started, is like, yeah, really open up yourself to community and see what happens.

Emmoe: Yeah.

Chris: Thank you.

Savannah: Yes. Hopefully this is helpful.

Chris: I feel like I'm thinking a lot right now. I've gotten like a lot to think about. Yeah.

Tim: Well, now it's time for 10,000 Minute questions with Savanna Lock. When I dance, I look like?

Savannah: Oh.

Tim: Oh, she's doing it right now.

Savannah: Cheerleader, cheerleader.

Emmoe: I know. Like this is great.

Chris: More like [inaudible 00:42:37], I feel like.

Savannah: [inaudible 00:42:37] figure out. A boxer or cheerleader.

Tim: Yeah. Wow, you guys, that was powerful.

Chris: Pretty good.

Tim: A few things almost got hit when she did that, but that was really great. I'm glad you didn't get to see that, people.

Emmoe: So good.

Tim: You respect her more. You know? The eighties.

Savannah: I hate the eighties. I hate them. I can't... Todd and I have disagreements. I can't listen music. It makes me depressed. I can't.

Chris: Well, do we need to have like...

Savannah: I think it sounds like Sonic the Hedgehog, all of it.

Chris: Okay.

Savannah: I'm just kidding.

Tim: Do we need to have a care-frontation on this? Do we need to talk to your life group about this?

Savannah: Oh, no. I mean, Todd and I know. Todd and I know that this is somewhere we do not agree.

Tim: Ah. So that stops the making out right away. An eighties song comes on, eyes open.

Savannah: I don't feel that our hearts are really emotionally engaged in the eighties conversation, but yes.

Emmoe: Wow.

Tim: Okay. Three words to best describe yourself.

Savannah: Oh, God. Oh, God. Uh...

Tim: Right? Yeah, yeah. We could find something really deep there.

Savannah: I would say... How I would hope to be described by my friends?

Tim: Yeah.

Savannah: Okay. Whimsical, warm, and non-judgmental. That's what I would hope that people would describe me as.

Tim: Yeah. Love that. They said very different things, but I think that those are great. Three favorite movies or three favorite shows.

Savannah: Yeah, shows only. That's all that I'm into. This will be just right now. Ted Lasso, The Morning Show, and Ozark.

Chris: Come, on.

Savannah: Yeah.

Emmoe: Good choices.

Chris: Come over to our house

Savannah: Jason Bateman...

Chris: He's the best.

Savannah: I just love him so much. He named his daughter Maple, and I now want to name any future kids that I have Maple.

Tim: All of them?

Chris: Just all of them.

Savannah: All of them. Maple one, maple two...

Chris: Maple syrup. Maple tree.

Tim: Yes, yes.

Chris: Be a whole thing.

Savannah: Maple tree.

Tim: I was going to say, what are other...

Chris: Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a lot.

Tim: Did you say maple jam?

Chris: Yeah, I feel like I did. Let's get some New Hampshire people up here, see how it goes. Yeah, I don't know. Seems right.

Tim: This one's going to be called Maple Jam, this episode.

Savannah: No one in New Hampshire has ever had a shout-out in a podcast, so I'm just really happy for them right now.

Chris: I'm just trying to think of maple trees.

Tim: Maple jam.

Chris: Just seems right.

Tim: Okay. Maple custard?

Chris: I think I bought maple syrup in New Hampshire at this little gas station once driving through.

Tim: Made in New York City or something?

Chris: And that's why.

Savannah: Isn't the Canadian team the Maple Leafs?

Chris: That's Toronto, right?

Tim: Well...

Chris: Sports.

Tim: Total sports call.

Savannah: [crosstalk 00:45:10] their names are the Maple Leafs.

Tim: Yeah, yeah. We've got Elias [inaudible 00:45:13] next week, and he'll be able to tell us that because he's one of those Canadians.

Savannah: Yeah, confirm the Maple Leafs.

Chris: Or is it the baseball team?

Tim: I don't know. We're going to find out. So, everybody stay tuned for next week, for the last number. It's going to be so great. We've got a lot of jokes to say for this Canadian coming up.

Tim: Okay. The nineties, do you like the nineties?

Savannah: Yeah, they were a good vibe. That's when I was growing up.

Tim: Is that what you'd say about the nineties?

Savannah: Easy Bake Oven. Hey, Arnold. Those are the things that come. Hillary Duff. That's what comes to mind.

Tim: Favorite song you didn't write.

Savannah: You're So Vain by Carly Simon. Oh, it's so good. You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you. Who does not want to say that?

Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Pet peeves.

Savannah: I hate when people ask me questions or talk in movies or television shows. When I say, if we are ever watching a movie or a television show together, do not ask me questions because I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know either. I may be prophetic, but I don't know the future.

Emmoe: Perfect.

Tim: Wow. That's a zinger. There it is.

Savannah: Todd does that. He asks questions.

Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Savannah: But he's just trying to connect, and that's where I tell myself, "Savannah, he's wanting to connect with you." But I'm like, "mm-mm (negative). I need to watch this movie right now."

Chris: I'm very good at watching television, so I don't like to be bothered, interrupted as well.

Savannah: It locks me in. Netflix urging. But it does lock me in.

Chris: It does. It does its job well.

Savannah: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim: Yeah. Hillary asks me all the time, "Do you think that's going to happen?" I'm like, "Babe, boy, I don't... I'm watching this in real time with you right now."

Chris: I think I'm the one who's like I'm locked in, but I'm like, "Oh, here's what's... They're going to do this." And then I'm wrong every time, you know? And Kim's just like she doesn't care, but she's laughing at me the whole time. She's like...

Emmoe: Or like predicting the script sometimes I'll do.

Chris: Yeah, I'm like really trying to do it. And when I get it right, I'm like, "Pff, obviously."

Tim: Yeah. Maple jam every time.

Tim: All right. Well, that's all we have for that one. Hopefully that was helpful. And we got more to come. So please go check out 10,000Minutes.com. If you guys want to get the free text messages, encouragements, text 10K, 1-0-K, to 55678. 10K to 55678. Go check us out on Facebook or the Instagrams, all that stuff. And please share this with your friends, would you? And rate, subscribe, and comment. That'd be helpful. Thanks guys. Okay. I'll see you soon. Or I hear you soon? Hear me soon?