029: Guard Your Heart
Songwriter and member of Newsboys United Phil Joel joins the fun this week to share the ways he navigates political conversations, what the table of Jesus looks like and how guarding your heart is practicing the presence of God.
This week’s Practice: Guard Your Heart
+ 029 Guard Your Heart - Phil Joel Transcript
Phil: Yes, Tim. Timothy.
Tim: So you are from England, with your voice.
Phil: I'm from Hobbiton.
Tim: Hobbiton. Australia, then?
Chris: It's just the insult keep flying. [crosstalk 00:00:13]
Emmoe: Strong start, strong start.
Tim: [crosstalk 00:00:14] Put another shrimp on the barby.
Emmoe: He's from Phoenix, Arizona. Let him be.
Chris: Deep Tennessee accent.
Phil: A deep south accent. New Zealand, Tim.
Tim: New Zealand. I was so close.
Phil: So close. You knew that.
Tim: I did know that, but it's my favorite bit.
Phil: You must be feeling fit my friend, because we were nearly ready to fight, whereas it was about to be on.
Tim: Okay. So we've got Phil Joel on, who's basically the fifth member of the Beatles. I mean, well, okay. He wasn't in the Beatles and he's not the fifth member of anything, but he talks funny like they did and he plays music and he's an amazing, great, great human. So, I think you're going to love this podcast. So stay tuned.
Tim: Hey, thank you for giving the 10,000 Minutes. We are fully supported by you, so it's like a Patreon. You can go to our website 10000minutes.com for resources and if you want to partner with us.
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Tim: And also, if you haven't already done this, it's so helpful for us if you make comments on whatever podcast platform you're doing it on. Would you make comments there, rate this, or even subscribe to this podcast?
Tim: Okay, here we go. Phil Joel episode 29 of the 10,000 Minute Experiment.
Tim: Is that a real thing? The angst between the Australias and the New Zealands?
Phil: Well, I spent many... Well, really, 27 years in a band with Australians and we managed to not kill each other, so no, it's a sporting rivalry.
Tim: Yes.
Phil: Yes. And so, we like to beat the Australians in rugby, which we do often and occasionally in cricket.
Tim: Are those sports?
Phil: Those are sports. Yes they are. But yes. Yeah. So we like that. The difference, let me help you...
Tim: Please.
Phil: The difference... Australians are very gregarious type people. They're quite loud and out there. Yeah, you know and they're fun, life of the party. And then New Zealanders, we're just a little more quiet. We're a bit quieter, a little more laid back, a little more reserved.
Tim: Is that true as a culture?
Phil: Yeah. We're quite comfortable. And so, we think the Australians are arrogant and the Australians think that New Zealanders are dumb.
Tim: Oh.
Phil: Dopey, because we're just quieter.
Tim: Yeah. And we might be a bit dopey, I don't know.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: And they might be a bit arrogant. Who knows. Yeah.
Phil: Saying a knife is a knife, right?
Phil: That's the whole thing. Australians are a lot of fun.
Tim: Yeah. And so you were also in Casting Crowns?
Phil: Yes. Casting.
Tim: So, 26 years.
Phil: 26 Years, yes.
Tim: I mean, just kidding.
Phil: Newsboys since 1994. And then-
Tim: Newsboys since 1994.
Phil: ... Yes.
Tim: Dude.
Phil: And I stepped away and did my own thing, had family and all that. And then after about 11 years, we started a reunion tour.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And it was supposed to be a three month tour and then it turned into three and a half years.
Chris: Oh my God.
Phil: And so we just... And we just finished, just in August
Tim: You finished a tour?
Phil: The tour, really. We've been touring together as Newsboys United for three and a half years.
Tim: Is Newsboys United done?
Phil: For now.
Tim: Okay.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah. So, August 13 is when we finished. And we may pick up again.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: I don't know.
Tim: Yeah. Why not?
Phil: It would be nice. Everyone's in good on good terms and-
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: ... And not that we weren't before, but it's was just... When you leave a party, people are like, "Oh, why'd you leave?"
Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Phil: Yeah. So we may do it again. We'll see.
Tim: What do you learn about reconciliation? Was there reconciliation needed?
Phil: Well, I don't-
Tim: After doing life with people for so long.
Phil: ... Yeah. Well, you're about to say, was there something you learned or something like that? I think one of the biggest things I've learned is we all observed different things in one another that we maybe don't like or that aren't aligned or correct, or what have you.
Phil: And the best thing to do is, if you need to, talk to that person about it. Bring it to them. Say, "Hey man, help me understand this. What's going on with that?" And that's cool.
Phil: Otherwise, shut up, and don't say anything to anyone else but them, and them alone. And if other people need to be brought into it after you've had that conversation, then I guess it's important. Just keep things to yourself, as opposed to people love to get on social media and spread things and say this and that.
Phil: And then that burns the bridge.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: To reconciliation or to just furthering the relationship or picking it up where you left off.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And so, sometimes it's good to just be quiet.
Tim: What do you learn as you're back with these guys that you've done life with for so many years?
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: And then there's some time in between. You're still friends, but-
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: Then now, traveling again. What do you learn about you? What do you learn about other people?
Phil: Well, I think at the time maybe, you sort of look at each other and go, oh. And you see these differences and you see maybe, again, things that maybe you don't align with.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: And when you're younger, those things bug you. And now when you're older, you celebrate those things and you go, "Man, that's really cool."
Phil: It's really different to me in that front and thinks really differently, equally as passionate about it, but we have totally different viewpoints. And you celebrate it.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: As opposed to go, "Yeah, he's wrong."
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Or you think he's wrong.
Tim: Yes.
Phil: I don't know. You get older and more, hopefully more... You realize that you need... Grace is a really important thing.
Tim: That's what I would say about you. My read on you from the time that we spent, or our walks or whatever, is that you have a pretty laid back... But it's not just laid back for laid backs. I feel like there's a maturity that you walk with in seeing people and seeing life in circumstances.
Tim: Is that always been, or is that become really a learned thing?
Phil: Yeah. I think it's learned. Hey, we go through all different phases and stages and different seasons. And I've been through dogmatic stages too.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And very rigid, fundamental phases where this is how it is, and if people don't align with that, then they're wrong. And now I don't see it that way at all. But it takes a while and you have to be gracious on yourself. And you have to go, okay, you are young and you're excited and you want to just lock everything down and you want to be on the winning team.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: So, you've landed at this theology or that idea and you thought it was it. And now you've got a little distance, you're like, "Eh." I don't know.
Tim: So, what have you learned about disagreeing with people?
Phil: Disagreeing with people.
Tim: I mean, this has been the season...
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: Of-
Phil: Oh yeah.
Tim: ... Revealing of-
Phil: Right.
Tim: ... Hearts and all the things. So, there's so many things to disagree on.
Phil: Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I'm still working that out, but I think being quiet is an important one. And maybe the culture that I come from, New Zealand culture is a little more British. You don't talk politics, you don't talk religion.
Tim: Huh. A.
Phil: Nd, but you have your viewpoints and you cast your vote and you worship as you will, right? You keep those things to yourself. America's a little different.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: It's different, and I was really excited when I came here in 1994 and I turned on the TV and I watched people arguing on TV, like on these news networks that have different sides of the table, literally different sides of the table.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Talking about their views, left or right or what have you. And then they'd finish up and shake hands and they'd, "See your tomorrow night," or something. And I'd be, whoa. The public forum and discourse here is just insane. We can talk about this stuff. We can talk about politics and we can talk about religion. We can talk about ideas here in the U.S. And this is really great, but this was 1994.
Tim: Right. I was going to say, that's a very different scene from-
Phil: I know. And now, oh gosh. All of that talking is still going on, but it seems to be online and in people's little feedback loops.
Tim: It's inhumanizing. I mean, there's really this demonizing of other people with this other view. It's no longer handshakes. It's like, you are pretty much the devil.
Phil: Yeah. It is. Yeah. So I think yeah, I'm still trying to navigate and figure out how to tread carefully and enjoy people and be able to love, and love as well as I can, without starting a fire.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: It's all tricky, isn't it?
Tim: Yes.
Phil: So that didn't give you any sort of answers or any solutions.
Tim: No, that's-
Phil: I don't know if I have any yet.
Tim: ... We don't need those. We're fine.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: I'm more curious of learnings than answers.
Phil: No, it's tough. Yeah. It's tough. I try. And with what I do, I'm still in these Christian churchy circles a lot of the time you. I try and stay out of the fray. Try and be apolitical.
Tim: I mean, I feel like Chris and I have similar feelings. We believe a lot of things. Everybody at this table has a different theology, to start, understanding of God. And everybody at this table has different ideas of what should be or should not be.
Tim: But I feel like in our culture, if I shared certain things, it'd be like, "Well, you're done."
Phil: Oh yeah.
Tim: "You're done in this culture."
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: And so, trying to figure out where are those places to speak up and where are those places to listen?
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: Yeah. I have no good answer.
Phil: Like you guys, I love a good conversation, right? And I love trying to find out what you think.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: How did you arrive at that?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Let me understand this. Oh. Oh, very cool. Okay. I don't know if I agree with that, but I see how you got there.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: But we have a little trouble having those conversations now.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Yeah. Thanksgiving and Christmas. Tricky for people.
Tim: Yeah. So, okay. Just for fun. We're about to get there. So, what would the way of Jesus look like at Christmas and Thanksgiving in conversations that we don't agree with? So if we're practicing the presence of God, in the moments where we're with people that we don't agree with what they're talking about, or whatever, what would the way of Jesus... What would "seeking first a kingdom of God" look like in those places?
Chris: Oh, it has to start with humility, as much as I don't like to say that. Because I'm thinking about... We're having Christmas at our house this year. For all my family listening, I love you so much, but everybody's coming. And I'm from Oklahoma, Kenzie's family is Texas. So we're just salt of the Earth people.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Pretty conservative people all around. But different viewpoints, honestly, on a lot of things. And when I think about my initial thought of, oh gosh, this could go left really quick. Just knowing all of the personalities that are going to be-
Tim: Not left politically. Left-
Chris: No, just off the rails.
Tim: ... Go sideways.
Chris: We could go off the rails really fast, yeah. And so when I think about that, it's okay, well, the first thing you've got to do is make a table. What are we doing at in these moments? Why are we even getting together?
Chris: And so, set the table for people to come and just be themselves, which requires us to come and accept those who walk into our doors, which is not as easy as it sounds, especially with people that we know and love.
Chris: And I don't understand why that's harder, but sometimes doing that with family is harder than doing it with a stranger.
Tim: Totally.
Chris: Because, there's so much more baggage to it.
Tim: Yeah. We've been talking a lot about the table, about who's welcome at the table hospitality. And if everybody's welcome at the table with Jesus, even just the idea of communion itself, even the meal as this communion meal. That doesn't have to be bread and wine.
Tim: I just wonder if that would even look beautiful to go, "Okay, I belong at this table just because I'm loved. This person belongs to the table because Jesus loves them."
Phil: Tricky communion. What if there's nanoparticles in the communion?
Tim: Are you on trend substantiation right now?
Phil: [crosstalk 00:12:38] What if there are spike proteins in that bread? I don't know, man. We might have to... I might have to bring my own.
Phil: See. You guys, aren't sure if I'm for real or not.
Chris: I don't care, you belong at this table.
Tim: Doesn't matter.
Chris: You're welcome at my table.
Phil: Isn't that crazy though?
Phil: So what do you... How do you... Gosh. I mean, these are the topics of our times. So you want to be able to talk about things, right? And we want to converse and connect and bat ideas around, but there's some sort of weird aggression, which doesn't doesn't feel Jesus-y to me. Doesn't feel like the character of God.
Tim: If Jesus had a political system, what are the ways of Jesus? What are the laws of the Kingdom of God? I mean, I would say it's pretty much held up by love.
Phil: And grace.
Tim: Grace.
Phil: And fruit of the spirit, really, isn't it. Peace and joy, gentleness, kindness, faithfulness, goodness, self control. All of that.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Laying down your rights for another.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: Preferences.
Phil: Uh huh (affirmative). Yeah. I think there's just wisdom, too, in not being in the midst of these things, not being drawn into conversations you're not meant to be in.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Phil: Right? Jesus did that all the time, didn't he? He diverted the path and said, "You're asking the wrong question. Let me ask you a question." And turn things around.
Tim: Wow.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: That's interesting too, is we've been really... My mind is blown on this idea that our community's been really looking through all of the yous in the new Testament.
Phil: Oh.
Tim: And how almost every 'you' in the new Testament is a y'all. So it's not meant for, "Hey, this is. Tim, this is written for you."
Tim: It was written to those people at that time, but it was to those people. It's to the people group.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: And even the fruit of the spirit I've been freaking out about going, it's not for me. The fruit of the spirit isn't for my good.
Phil: No.
Tim: It's for the whole. Everything thing is for the collective, for the community.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: So the fruit of the spirit means nothing and is a waste of my time in life if it's not shared and then given.
Phil: Yeah. Oh yeah. The tree tree doesn't eat its own fruit, does it? It's for others. I think when people got around these... Getting back to the Jesus thing, I think people, when they got around Jesus, right, they felt really good and they felt seen and understood and liked. Like, yeah. Okay.
Phil: So, I think the goal is for our... We're talking about Thanksgiving, Christmas and whatnot, and Chris having everyone come over. And hopefully when they come into your home and step across that threshold, they just feel like, ah.
Chris: Right.
Phil: I'm okay here. [crosstalk 00:15:17] I'm welcomed here. I feel good. I feel good. And I think what's helpful in those situations is if people don't know what you think about certain things.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil: And we are just such a loud mouth culture. We love to talk.
Tim: Wow.
Phil: We love to blah, blah, blah, with our thumbs and send out all of these opinions, right. We just need to shut that up sometimes, because people don't need all that preconceived ideas when they step across our thresholds.
Tim: Right.
Phil: They need to step in their home and go, I feel good here. I feel welcome. I feel loved. I feel... I don't know.
Tim: Feel Jesus, presence God here-
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: ... Versus the presence of your ideas-
Phil: Yes.
Tim: ... Or your convictions.
Phil: And if our ideologies go before us, then it shuts the doors. Doesn't it? So, yeah, it gets me on my social media soapbox, which I should get off.
Tim: It's okay.
Phil: Gets me in trouble.
Tim: Does that get you in trouble?
Phil: Oh, yeah. It's has.
Tim: What's gotten you in trouble.
Phil: Not doing social media. Yeah. Because I don't do it.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Well, actually I tell a lie. About a year ago, I guess, someone talked me into getting those accounts going so I could put the little dates of where I'm going to be.
Tim: Right. Just for your soul. That's been-
Phil: Yes. [crosstalk 00:16:30] To look after that. Because otherwise, there's too many voices, too much noise. Yeah.
Tim: ... Yeah.
Phil: And you're talking about this podcast being the practicing the presence of God, right? Yeah. If we got all the presence of all these other voices, then we just put the squeeze on the voice of God.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: It's just math.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: We only got a certain capacity don't we?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: So, we need to shut some voices down, shut them up. It's better... I think some knowledge is just best not to have. I just read Genesis again, the knowledge of good evil. Some stuff is just best not to know.
Phil: I don't need to know all the conspiracy theories and whatnot. I don't need to know them. It just gets me wound up. It just gets me uptight. I need to guard my heart, because if I don't guard it and if I clog it up with all the other stuff, there's no wellspring of life that Jesus talked about, right? Coming bubbling up. It's clogged. It's blocked up with all this stuff.
Tim: I mean, just imagine a spring that's bubbling over, coming out of the ground, with all its fullness of life. So my question is what are you wasting your time, your money, and your energy on?
Tim: This is not a question that leads to shame, but it's to a fuller life. So, let's just stay curious. What are we wasting our time, our money, and our energy on? Jesus, open our eyes.
Tim: Okay. So, how do you... I love that. How do you live in the, I'm going to say the real world, meaning just everybody around you that has these things and wants to talk through these things, are you're like, "Eh, I'm good."
Phil: Yeah. I don't think you can avoid most... You can't avoid what's going on.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Completely. It's not like putting your head in the sand, right?
Tim: Yes, so talk about that balance.
Phil: Yeah. The balance. Gosh, I don't know. I'm not sure if I'm maintaining it perfectly, but I think if you're in the strike-
Tim: Or holding the tension. What does it look like to hold the tension between sticking your head in the sand and just going, I know there's all this stuff going on and I will be with you in it, friend. But I don't need to know all the details. How does that work? How do you find that?
Phil: Yeah, I don't know. I think, well, I don't know. I mean, maybe we'll get back to the beginning of, or even the title of, the podcast or the... What do we call it? The theme.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Practicing the presence of God every day. For the past 20 years, I've set aside this time in the morning to get up and spend time with God. And it hasn't been perfect every time. Sometimes I'm blurry eyed and I can't read anything and I'm just distracted and whatnot.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: But being still and just clearing the clutter and opening your heart and then opening scripture and say, "Hey, speak to me." And sometimes go for a walk like you do, walking and allowing God to speak to you through nature and whatnot.
Phil: But just getting re-centered every day, I think is really helpful. It's really helpful starting that way, starting, "Okay, give me peace, Lord. Speak to me, show me things I need to see about myself or about yourself." And then let's clear the clutter. Let's get in good standing with one another, confession if need be, all that sort of stuff.
Phil: So, heading into your day from a place of peace.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And then, when things do come across the path, your radar's there in a place where it's like, "Eh, we're not going to go there. We're not going to talk about this." Or, "Well, this is important, and what you're talking about right now is more of a heart issue than some sort of political idea or..." Whatever.
Phil: This is an opportunity for us to really talk about something real. Real.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And so, hopefully that's, I guess, in churchy terms, that's being spirit-led, trying your best to be spirit-led, as opposed to Facebook, social media led.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Because we do get led by that. We do get led by our feeds and what's coming through fills our brains.
Tim: Yeah. One of the practices that we do often... I do it all the time. It's become a staple, is this breathing in Jesus, breathing out, you have my attention. And I think I do practice that and I do have social media, but I think that is a place that I definitely get... My attention goes and it gets stuck in those places. So I see the beauty.
Phil: Yeah. I think your time is your life. And if you waste your time, you waste your life. You only got a little bit. We're going to go about 80, 90 years or what have you, hopefully.
Phil: And yeah, I don't want to waste my brain on stuff. But then again, I'm just a dumb Kiwi. Dumb New Zealander. Simple. We just try and keep it simple.
Tim: No, I think that's a gift.
Phil: I guess. I don't know.
Tim: Is your wife the same way? Does she have the same convictions?
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: With that stuff?
Phil: Yeah, totally.
Tim: She's way cooler than Phil, everybody.
Phil: Heck yeah. I was getting in the car, I thought she should be coming, really. She should be here.
Tim: Oh, that would actually be really fun. I thought about that.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: So maybe we'll do another one.
Phil: Way better things to say than I would ever.
Tim: Well, yeah. It would be fun to have you guys as a couple and learn some stuff from whatever you were learning at the moment.
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
Tim: Yeah. So, we'll do that. She's pretty great.
Phil: She is great. She's super well thought out and yeah. Very deliberate in everything she does.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: She teaches me a lot.
Tim: So during your days, what are things that pull you away? So, social media isn't pulling you away from your awareness of the presence of God.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: What are things for Phil that pull you away from your awareness of the presence of God or your attention?
Phil: Yeah, my worry about the future. My worry about paying bills. My worry about my kids. Worries. Worries. The little arrows that shoot at the soul all day long, right? Getting worried and anxious about things that we can't control. Yeah.
Phil: Even this morning, I think we read, was it Proverbs 35. Trust in Lord with all your heart, lean on your own understanding and all your ways acknowledge him and he'll make your path straight. In all your ways acknowledge him.
Phil: So yeah, you're talking about practice and the presence. Still trying to bring the Lord into things. Okay, gosh. I'm worrying about this. I'm concerned about this. I need to think. I mean, it's obviously a thing.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: It's real.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: It's not like, okay, again, just don't think about it. It'll go away.
Tim: Yep.
Phil: Bring it to the Lord. What am I thinking here? Why am I worried about this? Help me with this. Sometimes you have to follow those little black little bears back into the cave and find out what's back there. Why is it lurking and what's it threatening?
Tim: Right. That's a great question. What's it threatening?
Phil: Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: So, just for fun, worry about money for you. What's that threatening? If you're following that bear back into the cave, what is that threatening in you?
Phil: Yeah. Threatening what I would deem as success. What is success?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And what does it mean to be a man in American culture living successfully. Fruitfully, productively.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Conquering, taking on the land. What do you call it? And succeeding.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And then realizing... Jesus goes, "This idea of success, where'd it come from?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: I read it again. I read it yesterday. You can't serve God and money. Now, we need money, right?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: But you know when it becomes a God, when it's your thing. It's just [inaudible 00:24:06] charge and you start cutting corners and then your head ends and ends up in different places. You start neglecting the things that are of real value.
Phil: And that's why. It's not because God's going, "Money. No, I want to be God."
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: "Don't make money God. Don't make money your God, because it makes me jealous." He's like, "No, if you make money your God, it'll ruin you."
Tim: Yeah. It doesn't work.
Phil: It won't work. And all of the good, valuable stuff will get squished.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And will get the squeeze. So, yeah. Success and trying to do stuff. Always thinking I should be doing that. Should I be doing... Oh, Tim's doing a podcast. I should be doing a podcast.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: A podcast. I have to start that.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: He sends out these encouraging text messages. I should do something like that.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: What am I doing? I'm not doing enough. I'm not doing enough. And then it's like, nah, chill out, slow down. Just enjoy. Just dwell on the land, feed on his faithfulness. It's going to be okay. Love your wife.
Tim: You know when you're following money too much, you said. And I was thinking, no, I don't. I don't know. That's part of my problem. So are there things that wake you up? Because, I think that I lose reality often in life. Pretty much every day, I lose reality of what's really happening.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: I get drunk on the notion of worry, on success. It just becomes... I'm intoxicated with it.
Phil: Huh.
Tim: Or whatever these things are.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: So what are the things that God might use or just in life that sober you up so you go, oh man, this is becoming too heavy in stuff that I don't need to hold anymore. Are there things that startle you out of that or bring sobriety to your heart?
Phil: Sobriety to my heart. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, I don't know. You're talking about, again, back to the practice of the presence. Just living in the the now is so important. Living here right now, otherwise we wish our lives away.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: I'm trying to get better at that, and trying to get better at that. But we love to plan, we love to work it out. Where are we going to be? What are we going to do? What's the hustle? How are we going to work it?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And obviously, there is a balance, I guess is the right word. I don't know if balance is always the right word.
Tim: Yeah.
Tim: I like that idea of tension.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: Working in the tensions of things.
Phil: Yeah. There's a tension we hold, but as long as God's in the midst of it and as long as we're listening. Sometimes I have to just really stop and go, okay, what are you trying to say?
Phil: And usually I feel the Lord saying, "why are you getting so wound up about that? Just let it go. Let it go. It's all good." And I know that sounds really irresponsible, but more often than not, the things that I'm getting worried about or getting all uptight about, he's going, "What are you doing? You're wasting your time. You're wasting your life. You're wasting your energy. And I've got other things for you to do. And you're putting the squeeze on that fruit that I want to grow in your life that you're talking about. Love, joy and peace and patience, gentleness, kindness."
Phil: I've got this memorized because it's good. Gentleness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self control. That's good. That's the good stuff.
Tim: This has been so good, Phil.
Phil: Has it? Oh I thought we were all just getting quiet and it's like, okay. [crosstalk 00:27:14].
Tim: You're saying such beautiful, profound things.
Phil: Oh.
Tim: And I'm actually happy Heather's not here for this. Truly.
Phil: Oh good.
Tim: And I'd love to have her in, and you guys in, at some point. It would be really beautiful.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: But I also love having you in, because you've got really beautiful, profound things to say.
Phil: Well, that's kind of you.
Tim: No, it's not kind. I will not say kind things. I will say... I'm serious.
Emmoe: He says true things.
Tim: I will say things that I believe that are true.
Phil: Well, thank you.
Tim: And I won't tell you things. If I think you're an idiot, I won't say it to your face. I'll just go, man. You're here. You were really here. You were something else today.
Emmoe: He does do that.
Phil: Really?
Tim: Yeah. You were that... Man, that was a podcast. Wow, that was a podcast.
Phil: Well, I appreciate you guys doing what you're doing. Because really it is, it's just about batting it around and trying to figure things out, because we're all bumbling around a little bit in the dark.
Tim: Totally.
Phil: And we all want to win. We want to be on the winning team. We don't want to waste our lives and we want everything of value to be treasured. And we're trying to understand this Jesus idea, this Jesus who walked the Earth 2000 years ago. How do we apply what he was saying back then and how he was living and what he was demonstrating to now?
Phil: How does this work?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: What is the character of God?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And how do I adhere to and become more like him.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: In the midst of this. Especially this culture right now, with a lot of fist shaking.
Phil: Quite interesting, I was telling Heather about it this morning. Jesus knew what was going down in his time, of course. And he knew that he was going to affect only a small amount of people with what he was doing.
Tim: Right.
Phil: His entire life. This is the life of God incarnate on the planet, right? And he knew that in 70 years after he had gone, that the Roman people were going to get sick and tired of Jerusalem and these Jewish people waiting for this whatever and stirring it up and pushing back.
Phil: And so, they sacked the place. They just destroyed Jerusalem. This is the city that he cried over and got on a donkey and roamed into as they were expecting this Messiah to come in on steed.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: And wipe everyone out, right? You know this new-
Tim: Dominate.
Phil: ... Yes. This dominate. This new-
Tim: Charge up.
Phil: Yep. And he was going to be the powerful Messiah who was going to lead them into freedom. And instead he goes, check this out, right?
Phil: Donkey. Donkey. And by the way, they're going to kill me.
Tim: Gosh.
Phil: I'm not going to kill them.
Tim: Wow.
Phil: They're going to kill me. It's just wild, upside down stuff. And here we are, we're living in this day and age where everyone's shaking their fists, looking for their rights, looking for what's mine and what's owed me and this and that, right?
Phil: And Jesus knew in the midst of what he was doing that no one would understand it, but he would affect history. It would change the course of human history forever. And that's wild. I don't know. This has been on my mind because of just talking about success. What does it mean?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: What does it mean? Why make art? Why... I gave you a record I made last year. Why make music? Why write song if I'm not going to be on social media blasting and telling everyone how great they are?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Oh no, only about five people are going to hear it. Well, it's okay. Is it good art? Is it something I feel God's shown me and led me into? Yeah. Cool. Okay. Well then, make it, do it, put it out there. Do your thing. Keep your nose down. Love God, love your wife, love your neighbors, love your family, do your thing and see what happens, right?
Phil: Man, we get so complicated. Yeah, I'm trying. But I say this, and I know that I'm saying this and it's coming out my mouth and coming back in my own two ears.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Because I need to hear it, too.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Phil: I constantly need to hear... I think it's funny. God gives certain people different platforms to say certain things, probably because he knows those people that are standing on the platform need to hear it more than the people in the congregation or the audience.
Tim: Totally.
Phil: I'm one of those.
Tim: I am too. That's why we do this 10,000 minute thing.
Phil: Cool.
Tim: It's more for me in so many ways. The idea that I've had just with my cancer journey is that I don't want to waste my breath on things. I'm just tired of wasting my breath. I have so many breaths left in my life and I don't want to waste my breath.
Tim: But the way that you were talking about it, yes it's breath. But it was almost like I don't want to waste my energy on things that don't need... That are fruitless. That are worthless. They don't actually... There's no value added.
Tim: In some things that we'd go, oh, I don't want to play games. But to Moi, you're like, no gaming actually is a blast to me. It's actually good for my soul. So, it's not putting judgements on what things, social media, whatever. It's not putting these dark judgments on these things, but what are the things that are causing you to waste your energy on certain things in life? That's just... I'm-
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: ... Intrigued by that.
Phil: Real questions. That's why it's good to get into a place of solitude, soul searching, being still, asking God to speak. And he does speak. He will speak, but we are really, really noisy. We're really noisy people. We've got these little guys attached in our pockets, these phones with all of these voices.
Phil: And we never waste a minute, do we? We've got a podcast to listen to. We've got some music to listen to-
Tim: Which, keep listening to this one, everybody, but just... He's talking about other ones. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: But learning, practicing to be still to hear the voice of God, is one of those things that is a real practice. And our heads are so full and our ears are so static-y that we have to be deliberate about cutting those voices out.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Because if we don't, they just take over and then we go, "Why can't I hear from you God?" We start shaking our fist at God. "What's wrong with you? Why you're speaking to me?"
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Well, he is speaking, but we're just not listening. Now, there are times, obviously, when we do find ourselves in places that God will, for some reason, is withholding-
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: ... What he needs to communicate, or what we feel he needs to communicate. But it's always for our own good, but it is really frustrating.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Really frustrating. I'm not saying this is perfect science and we should be able to just turn our phone off and there's a line to God.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: But practicing the presence, practicing being still, practicing silence, practicing solitude, deliberately taking ourselves out of situations so that we can be in the presence of God like Jesus did it, all the time.
Tim: Yep.
Phil: Went up on a mountainside, got away. And yeah, that's important stuff.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Yeah. It really is. It doesn't just happen. Yeah. I wish it did.
Tim: Thank you, Phil.
Phil: Yes. You're welcome.
Tim: Speaking of Australia, we've got about two minutes left.
Phil: Oh really?
Tim: And we're going to riddle you with some questions.
Phil: Oh boy.
Tim: And it's a speed round, so I need you to really nail this.
Phil: I'm nervous.
Tim: You should be a little nervous.
Phil: Okay.
Tim: So, it's called 10,000 thoughts.
Phil: All right.
Tim: And we're just going to throw a few things out at you and just give us your first initial gut reaction.
Phil: I'll bet Chris is real good at this.
Chris: So good at it.
Phil: I'll bet you are.
Tim: We played it with you once.
Chris: Yeah. I did a radio thing last week and they had a bunch of these. And they'd come at me. I'm like, "You have never seen somebody slay this like I'm about to slay this."
Tim: Yeah. And before we do that, you just had a new record come out.
Phil: Oh yeah, yeah.
Tim: This year.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: Called Better Than I Found It.
Phil: Better Than I Found It.
Chris: That looks like a real record back there, too.
Tim: And it's literally a record. [crosstalk 00:34:47] He brought me a record. A legit record.
Chris: You have a record player?
Phil: Yeah, do you have a record player?
Tim: No, bro, but it's going on my wall.
Phil: I thought, Tim's going to have a record collection. I was wrong.
Tim: I do have a record collection, in my heart [crosstalk 00:35:05].
Tim: Okay, 1980s.
Phil: Yes. Am I'm supposed to respond?
Tim: What's the first thing you're thinking?
Phil: Awesome. BMX bikes, E.T. Come on, Jaws. Yeah, freedom. No cell phones.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Come home when it gets dark. Woo.
Tim: True. Touche.
Tim: Bucket list.
Phil: I'd love to see the pyramids. Yeah, right. That'd be pretty fun.
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: That's about it.
Tim: Let's go. Let's go do that.
Chris: Seems easy enough. I think you can achieve that.
Phil: I think you could achieve it and yeah. My wife's birthday's coming up. Maybe I could talk her out of the New York trip and talk her into going Egypt.
Tim: Totally.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Let's go.
Phil: I didn't think so.
Tim: We'll go with you.
Phil: A little gritty.
Tim: Yeah. Go on 10,000 minutes. If you guys want to give to 10,000 minutes, we're going to go on a trip to Egypt.
Tim: Do you know a joke?
Phil: A joke. Anytime anyone asks me a joke, I blank out.
Tim: Me too. I get tell a joke to save my life.
Phil: Okay. I got one for you.
Tim: Okay.
Phil: Termite walks into a bar.
Tim: Love it already.
Phil: Taps on the bar and says, "Where's the bartender?" Anyone?
Chris: That's the joke.
Phil: Anyone?
Chris: Tinder.
Phil: The bar. Tinder. It's made of wood.
Tim: [crosstalk 00:36:13] Really good. Chris got it right away.
Phil: It wasn't that good?
Tim: He had it.
Phil: Sharp.
Tim: Dang it. Oh, that was... Okay, favorite movie?
Phil: Indiana Jones.
Tim: Obvi.
Phil: Come on.
Tim: Pet peeve or pet peeves?
Phil: Pet peeves? People that don't use their indicators.
Tim: Ooh.
Chris: That's blinkers in American.
Phil: Blinkers.
Tim: In American?
Chris: Yeah.
Phil: It is? Of course, it is. I should know that. I've been here a long time.
Tim: Any other?
Phil: Pet peeves? No, that's probably it. That's it.
Tim: Gosh.
Phil: I've got no other peeves.
Tim: That's a strong list.
Phil: What is a peeve?
Tim: A peeve. It's a cat.
Phil: A P-E...
Tim: It's a kind of cat. And so, a pet peeve is a pet cat that nobody likes cats. That's not true, I just made that up.
Phil: That was good though.
Tim: That was projection, because I don't like cats.
Phil: Oh, with you.
Tim: That was pretty good. I don't want to brag. Okay.
Phil: No. You know what? I do have another one. This is a big one.
Tim: Oh gosh.
Phil: Come on. You know my favorite airline? Southwest, right?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: Do you know why? Because I can phone a one 800 number and get a real human being on the phone. And they're usually just lovely.
Tim: Preach.
Phil: And they can help me in case I need assistance. But why are there no customer supports with real-
Tim: So, fake customer support people?
Phil: Yes.
Tim: Oh, yes.
Chris: You know what gets me? The fake typing that they put on. It makes me so mad. I'm like, I know no one is typing. Don't. It's condescending to me.
Tim: It is condescending.
Chris: It's like, I'm not that dumb. Stop it. It makes me so mad.
Emmoe: That's too good.
Chris: Peeved. I'm peeved.
Tim: You're catted.
Chris: I get catted.
Tim: You're totally catted.
Tim: What's the best song you didn't write?
Phil: Oh, the best song I didn't write? In Your Eyes. Peter Gabriel.
Tim: Oh my gosh, I think we just ended this thing. That was a mic drop right there.
Phil: Whoa. Yeah, I don't even know where that came from.
Tim: I think that's what I'd say, too. One of them.
Phil: Really?
Tim: Yeah.
Phil: In your eyes, the light the heat.
Tim: Oh my gosh. Okay. Well-
Phil: Peter Gabriel, very spiritual guy, actually.
Tim: ... Yes.
Phil: Yeah.
Tim: Dig it. I Need a Hero.
Phil: Well, thanks guys. Thanks for having me.
Tim: Thanks for being here.
Phil: This is fun. What a fun way to start the day or approach lunch time, I guess.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks dude.
Phil: Yeah.
