025: See The Voice of God

Advisor and author Dave Gibbons jumps on the podcast this week to help us practice the presence of God when we’re on the clock, reconnect our work with our faith and understand prayer as seeing the voice of God.

This week’s Practice:

See The Voice of God

+ 025 See the Voice of God - Dave Gibbons Transcript

Tim: Okay. Hey everybody. Welcome to the 10,000 Minute Experiment, and this is going to be a great episode. By the end we've got tears and some pretty beautiful breakthroughs, so just stick in there with us. And if you guys want to give towards 10,000 Minutes and partner with us, that would be amazing. So just go to 10000minutes.com and you'll see an apparatus that says donate, or just go there to find different resources to help you join Jesus all week long. All right. We've got sir Dave Gibbons on this episode and it is so powerful. Dave is kind of like a Sage. He's a consultant for all these people. I mean, he's consulted Kobe Bryant. He consults all these major leaders all over the world and Dave has become a friend. This is so good. You can also check him out at 3culture.com. That's number 3culture.com. Okay, get ready. All right, everybody. Welcome to 10,000 Minute Experiment with Tim Timmons. We've got Emmoe Doniz-

Emmoe: I'm back. Hello.

Tim: ... and the Chris Cleveland over here to my hot left.

Chris: Hey guys.

Tim: And guys in front of us, on the Zoom, again, it's a new way of recording things.

Chris: Don't know if you've heard about it.

Emmoe: We're trying to the get that sponsorship, but-

Tim: Zoom. We have a hero on the other side of this. Now before everybody came in, I told my kids who was going to be on today, and they were so stoked because this human, just with his words and gifting, actually put a crazy thumbprint on my kids and spoke actual blessings. So when we were talking about blessings in that season, we actually hung out with this guy. So I'll start off, so you can be in the conversation. This is Dave Gibbons, everybody. We went on this little retreat with Dave and his wife and some other families. And as we were talking about blessings, and the word blessing did not mean at that point or any time to give a financial thing, but biblically, it was to call out what already exists in people.

Tim: And Dave has known this for years. So we're just kind of catching up to all this stuff. But Dave began to do that with my kids. It was so powerful. It continues to be powerful in my home with my family. So just as a dad, I am so thankful for your life, Dave. So thank you for that.

Dave: Well Tim, it was a fun joy to finally meet you and also all the kids, man. That was a pleasant surprise to see the joy that they had. That several days was significant for me to see that it could work with children and teenagers.

Tim: What he is referring to is this trip that I took with my family and a few other amazing families, and Dave and his wife. We had everybody on the trip draw out their story on a storyboard on a big cardboard piece of paper, no words were allowed. And they just had to tell the things that shaped them. So even my kids from 14 and 10, we had high school students, they were all writing down the things that shaped them in their stories. Everybody in the room would actually then end up blessing whoever just told their story. And by blessing, we don't mean giving them financial things. It was more about calling out what already exists, what we see in them.

Tim: It was one of the most powerful times I've probably had in my life, especially with my family. And whenever Dave would speak, it was so profound, because he wasn't just looking at them with his eyes, he literally had these eyes of God. And so later in this episode, he starts just talking about Chris and Emmoe and calling them out on some beautiful things and blessing them. I mean, it was just like real time. And both of them were literally crying at the end. So stay tuned, get ready and let's see what God has for us.

Tim: So here's what we're in. We're in the series right now on Practicing the Presence of God, just in our daily lives. And the stuff the place that is, well, so many places. But you deal with a lot of people in the workplace. And I just wanted to talk about what does that look like? What do you learn as you're consulting with people? As you're walking with so many people from so many different places in life, what do you learn about people and how do we actually see Jesus, and join Jesus in the workplace? What are you seeing or what do you learn there?

Dave: Well, the first thing is I think the binary approach that we've been taking our faith where you have the institutional church on one side and the life of people center around the orbit of really the church itself. And the senior leadership and their vision for the city, and then the people are supposed to go out and then basically bring them back to the hub somehow. So everything's centered around the silo of the church. Whereas when I look at the marketplace, I see this unique fear where it's really the center of so much activity of what God's doing.

Dave: And they're ill equipped in terms of how to integrate their faith beyond trying to bring someone back to church or doing like a bait and switch, be nice to someone so that you can invite them to come to church, or some programmatic way, like, hey, we're going to have a Bible study or a prayer group at lunchtime. And I said, "What a sorry life." That's a sorry presentation of really integration. I said, "What would it look like?" And the question started coming, what would it look like if you went to work on Monday, it was even better than Sunday? And where you could feel the presence of God in all the activity of your work. And then what bothered me too, was the conversation in evangelicalism where it focused mostly upon the talk of faith and work.

Dave: And so they identify what they call like the seven mountains of influence, but they would never really discuss, well, how do you build cities on these mountains? How do you go underground and help people to live so that they love everyday, and they're not just waiting for the Sunday of the week?

Tim: Wow. How do you do that? What does this look like? Because I think we do. We all see church as a Sunday morning thing. The thing we do, which we know biblically is so not the thing the Bible would prescribe. That we are the church gathered and scattered. So what's that look like for us to be more aware? I mean, it is like we are on mission in all places, but not in the same way that I guess we've always thought is like, I'm going to go win these souls. It's like, I'm on a mission just to join Jesus in whatever he's doing.

Dave: Yeah, no, you're right. It's a lot of this has to deal first with our mindset. It's not a life of either or like faith and work. It's about a life of, and A&D right? It's like Jesus was both heaven and earth. He was abstract and he was fully human. And then when you think about the Lord's prayer talks about thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So what would it look like if we're not supposed to just wait someday to experience heaven, but that we can experience heaven right now? In fact, Jesus says, if we become like children, you can enter the kingdom of heaven. And so I'm thinking, whoa, there's a lot more to this than this maybe a Sunday thing. And wait till I get to heaven.

Dave: The world is getting more sucky all the time. Maybe the reality is if I can experience the presence of God as I go to work, as I'm preparing for work, as I'm in work, man that's like five days of the week. And so what it looks like to me was first mindset wise that maybe this is a true possibility to experience God beyond a Sunday worship service for one hour. And then if it is, what does it look like? And I think a lot of it came down to this whole issue of prayer, because I think the way we've defined prayer is more of a talk to God. And the secondary aspect would be listen to the word of God in terms of read the Bible. So the Bible is the next revelation for us.

Dave: And then once in a while there's certain elite people that can hear a voice. And so that to me again, is like, well, what about the 99% of people who don't hear voices? And what about two thirds of the world or a much of the world that cannot read? How do they experience God then? And so then I started studying more Eastern stuff and just looking at what Jesus was doing and his life. And I realized that prayer was more about listening and seeing. More than maybe just hearing a voice, it was seeing the voice of God. It was through our interaction with people, because you are the imago Dei, where you're made in the image of God. So there's probably not a more encapsulated understanding and experience of God than through other human beings.

Dave: And so what if we could see God through the portals that God has created for us to engage? I said, man, that would be magical. And so that was a large part of it, was just re-posturing what I thought about the presence of God that it's not just when I'm trying to say things to God, or just articulate a word or read the word, which is good. All these things are great, but maybe it's through my experiential piece of living that I can hear God's voice too.

Tim: And you were talking about seeing, so what's that practically look like to, instead of just hearing the voice of God, but seeing the heart and voice of God? What's that look like?

Dave: Well, so in Genesis 11, they talk about this silo by Babel, and everybody's contained. And that's really the vision of people. Is to build and become significant. But the vision he had for her was to be free and so to roam the whole earth. And Genesis says be fruitful, multiplies so as to fill the whole earth. And so there's a flourishing piece of it. We weren't supposed to live lives contained. And then the second piece after Genesis, he goes to Genesis 12 and he talks about to be blessed to bless. And this is the piece where seeing is involved. Where, when I looked at the concept of blessing... And by the way, this was the mandate he gave to humanity. Receive the blessing and released it. So if anybody wants to know they're calling, this is essentially it's. Not about your job.

Dave: I think everybody's looking for the job as like the Holy Grail. What job am I supposed to do? Well, your occupation is just like a piece of clothing. You can express yourself through it doesn't necessarily define you, because a lot of the greatest jobs today weren't around 50 years ago. Now, you get paid to play video games. How awesome is that? But the calling that we have as humans, is really to bless people. Receive it, get full of God's blessing and then release it. So what is blessing? Is the piece that's significant. It's to see know, affirm and give. See, know, affirm and give. So historically, when you look at the concept of blessing, it's those four components, where the parents saw the child, they knew the child, they affirmed their beauty, who they were and the legacy that they had generationally.

Dave: And then they gave to them the inheritance. Everything they had, they would sacrifice to their children. So that's what I say is what we do when it comes to understanding God. Is we start practicing this, where we see people, you take the time to lay aside the distractions. Really look into their soul with God's eyes, know their story, affirm the beauty that you're hearing, and then also then give to them whatever resource you're supposed to give to them. And so as we do this, where we receive the blessing and we see people and bless others, we start to experience the presence of God. It's like this really beautiful circle that's actually happening.

Tim: I mean, just so everybody's clear, that's basically what he did with all of us and with my kids. I mean, you really practice that, I got to watch it firsthand. And it was so powerful and that this is not just in those moments, but you're almost trying to figure out how do you do this all day long? Is that true?

Dave: Yeah. Well, it's not like I'm forcing it. It's just, it becomes like a natural thing, because you're doing work, but sometimes you're just stopping yourself when you're not used to it, and say, "Hey, how do I encourage this person maybe, without feeling like I have to hook it in somehow how to bring him to church or win them to Jesus?" Because I was trained basically that there's such an urgency to see people come to know Jesus that I'm supposed to witness to everybody. But when you look at Jesus, he didn't do that. That was really the work of the spirit. He only did he saw his father doing. So he didn't heal everybody. He didn't feed everybody. He only did the activity he saw the father already initiating.

Dave: And so this type of this type of life is like such a release to me because we are trained in business school that this is a doggie dog world. You got to go make it happen. Whereas the truth is biblically, it's already happening. Our job is to dance with God. To figure out where he's moving and flow with him. And so it's more of a presence where you're fully present then in relationship with God. So I love this idea too, because I was reading Ilia Delio. She's an amazing writer. And she's a Franciscan nun. And she wrote a book that no one would buy, because of the title itself. Because the title and the book cover looks goofy. It says the Humility of God. I mean, who's going to buy that book.

Tim: Right. That could be the most boring title that's ever been.

Dave: But, I can tell you this. It's probably been one of the top three books I've ever read. And it's significant because she basically says, "What if we see God, not as the one who's trying to control the universe, but he's really trying to relate to the universe." And I go, wow, that just really blew my mind, because that's how he is with us. He's not trying to control us because love doesn't control the other. It allows a freedom. And so he's relating to us. And often I think that's through the interactions with other human beings and then with nature, with dreams and visions that he may give us during the day.

Dave: If you start to understand this, that's not confined to you, just you are reading the Bible. Me just talking one way to God, me just hearing a sermon, everything opens up and you start to see colors and hear things you never heard before. And then I said, "This is the goal. That your life would become like Narnia, where every day you open that door to go out into the world, it's like, you're walking into the wardrobe. And you're saying, here it is, God I'm ready to roll with you."

Tim: Are there practices that you give people or that you've put in or rhythms that you've put into your own life and now it's become a little bit more-

Chris: Second nature.

Tim: Yeah. It's almost come more second nature to you. But were there things that you did earlier on or things that you found that have been really helpful that you give to other people or you invite other people into?

Dave: Yeah. I think there are several rhythms that are really significant to do. Number one is the practice of silence is just not to talk as much to be known for-

Tim: Okay. It's been great having you-

Emmoe: Thanks so much, Dave.

Tim: This has been so great. Let's move on to the fun question.

Chris: [crosstalk 00:16:18] my soul. Yeah.

Emmoe: Shortest sentence said yet.

Tim: Okay. Well, you guys can find us on 10,000minutes.com and this is great. Dave Gibbons, everybody. Okay. Dave, please continue with silence.

Dave: Yeah. It's to be a listener. I think we're not usually really good at listening. And so listening's not just with your ears, it's with your eyes, because communications through your body or through the vibe you're feeling, because someone can say something, but they're lying or they're self deceived or they may think their telling the truth, and they're not. So your body will often demonstrate what's really being said. And so listening is really an art and it's something I think we've lost. And I think this is what partnerships like, whether it's your spouse or someone you're deeply in love with, a partner, they seek this. They long for someone to understand them and not to give them solutions, but just to see them. And so that's a gift.

Dave: That's a divine transaction. A piece that I think we're missing deeply today, because of our social media. Yeah. After listening, another rhythm that's important is movement, especially movement towards marginalized places or places that you would feel uncomfortable culturally. So like in every city, even in America problem, you could find different cultural zones. But we commonly will just default to people like us or cultures like us. It's demonstrated by the restaurants of choice, or people you hang out with. But look around, walk the city and ask God to give you his eyes for the city, which is the people usually.

Dave: And then you start to walk the city and you start seeing people and cultures and then start relating to it. By eating the food, getting to know the people. And as you move outside your silo of culture, what happens is your life becomes more colorful, because you start to see views of God that you didn't see before. Humanity is so diverse that as you start to listen and see them, you start to see through their eyes of the world in a different light. And so when Black Lives Matter or when you have the immigration issues that are coming, that we see, if you go walk the border, or if you go walk with people in the city, even though you may disagree, if you just let yourself listen, you start to feel some of the angst and pain.

Dave: No matter what your partisan, you may be, if you're just human. You can feel their triggers or their emotions. So that's a very important piece of the discipline I think, that I practice to understand the presence of God is go move into those marginalized places because theologically, Jesus said if you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me. And so it's good to ask ourselves is who in our world is considered the least of these? They may not be the least of these, but to us, they are. So go to that place, and that's where you're probably going to find Jesus. An example of this would be I was taking this guy that was working for, I think it was a Virgin Record label or some company. It was, I don't remember, some New York media company.

Dave: And he went to look at the situation in LA regarding the houseless. And so I said, "Well, if you really want to experience that more than just a seminar, let's go walk the streets of LA in the row where there's tens of thousands of population of houseless. And I want to show you something, I want you to see how Jesus is there." And so we go there and start walking, and the prayer that we were having, because I was walking with my friend named [Q 00:20:28] who's an advocate. He's got all types of awards now. But I told Q, I said, why don't you show us around the city with my friend?

Dave: And Q, at that time, we were praying like, should we put more resources here? And so anyways, we're walking this city with this executive and Q and then this houseless person just starts walking by us slowly. And then as he walks by us, he says, "Bring Jesus here, bring Jesus here." We didn't even know who he was. Since that time, Q has become an established advocate of the houseless in LA where he's won awards from PBS, the government, the Martin Luther king, Malcolm X awards. I mean all types of awards and he's faithfully done this for 15 years.

Tim: We got seeing, we got listening, we got being quiet-

Dave: Movement to the margins.

Tim: Movement to the margins. And I mean, just even in our world right now, is that have anything to do... I mean, I just think about our friend group and people that are in my town right now, that it has just become so scattered. I mean, you're choosing sides right now on all the issues that are happening. And it's just getting like further and further, and further. And these are all Jesus people. And people are just not belonging and at each other's tables anymore. Does that have anything to do with this at all? Or are you talking more about actual margins of the houseless?

Dave: Yeah. I think it's the shade and nuance of it, but I would specifically say it's important to culturally engage someone different than you. But what you're talking about too is someone that may also of different opinion-

Tim: Yeah. I guess you're right.

Dave: ... which is important too, because it is a nuance of that. And these are people that I would even say that almost feel like they're unforgivable or they're obstinate, or they've betrayed you. This to me is the hardest because culture sometimes is even easier than someone who's betrayed you or who's hurt you. So I would say, how do you love them? Because we are told to bless those who curse us, bless and curse not. And so this exchange of when you go love... The third discipline would be, who's unforgivable in your life? Who's betrayed you? Who disagrees with you regarding BLM or whatever? How do you love them, especially when they don't want to love you? And so I would advocate for what I call a third way embrace.

Dave: A third way embrace is Romans 14, where it says if you're strong, you're supposed to love the weak and you may to be of different opinion, but still respect and come eat at the table together. So there's acknowledgement of each other's differences. And usually whoever has their own belief, they think the other person's weak if they think they're the right one-

Tim: Totally I'm smarter. I'm better. I'm right. Yeah.

Dave: Yeah. So both people are thinking they are the strong the other person's the weak. So that's why I like how you just simply says, okay, whoever you are, if you think you're strong, sit at the table and love the weak. And I feel like that's the way we're supposed to go. There's a third way. Whether it's with sexuality issues, whether it's partisanship and politics, there's so many differences. Pro-life, pro-choice, there's this different ways that we can say we can disagree with a lot of stuff, but can we at least just respect each other's humans and then come together based on Jesus without being weird and religious. We're affirming that we're different, but there's so many things we can work together on. And so let's focus on that.

Dave: And then let's trust, that if one of us is wrong, that we're going listen to the holy spirit to reveal those things. And I'm grateful for it, because I've been the recipient of that type of grace where I come from very fundamentalist background. I mean, strictly fundamentalist to the right of anybody you can think of about in America. Women couldn't wear pants. Guys had to get certain types of haircuts. Couldn't go to the movies, no interracial dating. I mean, that was the whole culture of the fundamentalism I grew up in. But I had so many people that were beyond me in terms of, I think their understanding of grace in God. And they're patience with me, with my views on women, my views on sexuality, my views on a lot of things and they didn't beat me over the head with it, nor did they counsel me.

Dave: They just would ask me, Hey, what's your position on that? And how did you come to that? And they just asked me nicely these questions. And I'd let them know. And I said, well, it's biblical. Says this and this and this. And they're like oh, okay. And I just looked at their response. They were so loving and then years down the road, it's like, dang, they're right. And I had to apologize to congregations, the people in the past. I said, "Man, I was so screwed up on this. I'm really sorry. I really thought it was this, because I was trying to be biblical." But like, for example, I said, "I saw an ethic of Christ more than just some of the laws." That there's an ethic of Christ that Matthew five through seven, that he lived his life by that superseded the law.

Dave: And the ethic was the Beatitudes. And that was basically the design principles that would always overrule a lot of the little laws. And so I didn't see my life fundamentally that way. It's always through these black and white yet do and don't versus like, there's a higher level ethic that Jesus lived his life by. So that changed me. So I'm the recipient of someone who was kind towards me, even though I had a different opinion that was offensive even.

Chris: How do you feel as a person coming from a place of that fundamentalist background? How was your life been in terms of happiness and joy and freedom? Compared to how you live your life now, do you feel a tangible difference in your life when you're seeking out these Jesus principles every day in other people? [crosstalk 00:27:00]

Dave: Yeah. That's a really good question. It's a great question. I think initially when I gave my life to Christ the fundamentalism, it was a good thing because my life was so chaotic. With my parents divorce, my mom, she eventually died. She started drinking a lot. So everything was confusing to me. So it was a respite to go into a place where everybody seemed like they had answers. And so it was very black... And I think there's a draw to that and sometimes, maybe [crosstalk 00:27:30] yeah. And maybe, also, I think if you come from a certain culture where you're in a blue collar culture, they're used to people just telling them what to do too. And so it's a comfortable culture, where they're not taught to question. And if they are, they're looked upon as rebellious.

Dave: Now, so after I moved from that, there was things I started to see in terms of challenges. And so when I look back at that moment, I said, "Yeah, it was good for me back then, because I think it felt good for me. Maybe I needed that." I didn't know any better, but as I grew, I saw no there's so much freedom in Christ. And some of these things that people act so clear about where they pound the pulpit really hard, maybe it's a sign that they don't have proof, because they're kind of overdoing it. They're kind of getting a little over emotion about this. And so if they get a little too loud, it probably means they're not confident in it. So possibly I need to re-look at this. And then when I reexamine scriptures and I start reading other authors they say, as you go to grad school, you realize like how much you don't know more than when you're in college.

Dave: And so the more educated you get, the reality is you become more humble probably, because you realize there's such a wealth and breadth of information about even one topic. And so I think as I grew older instead of just like focusing on proclamation, that was the focus like proclaim witness, speak the word, boldness, be courageous to just say things to people, to their face, even though you're offensive. I felt like, no, I don't know if that's the way. It seems like it was about being loving. It's about being a listener. And then maybe instead of your talk, maybe it's more about acting. Instead of just telling person you love them, go buy them some food because that's what they need. So it's instead of proclamation, my shift was more about presence.

Dave: Maybe it's more about my presence and how I communicate the presence of God through my action more than my talk. My talk is secondary to anything that I need to do. So I think that was part of the major shift. And then also how I viewed maybe connecting with God. That it was such a relegation to certain types of word things that we discussed before. But maybe it was more integrated in terms of with people, with activities, with nature that there's a holistic angle of experiencing God.

Chris: I love that.

Dave: There's a really cool idea that again with Ilia Delio, she mentions about God being love. And this was huge to me. We say love is like a characteristic of God, but her focus was well, what if God is like the full embodiment of love. He's entirely love. That's it. He's just love. You say, God is like something, whatever you say God is like, you need to know he's more than that. He's incomprehensible. And then she takes it to the next layer of logic, which is, well then maybe God is more in the silence and the mystery than we would ever imagine, because there's so much that we don't know or comprehend. And that gave me such comfort, and I told people I used to... And this was a shift too. When I was younger, it was always about having an answer for everything where because the Bible says I'd be ready to answer every man-

Tim: [crosstalk 00:31:10] yep. Peter.

Dave: Yeah. But as I get older, I go, no, no. The greatest apologetic of God is probably the silence and the mystery of who he is. That attracts me more than these airtight, I think logical views of God, which makes no sense to me sometimes.

Chris: I find myself getting to a place like that. I'm finally feel like I'm seeing how big God is. He just gets bigger and bigger every day, which gives me more comfort. It's a much less me putting him in this box that we've kind of created and much more of him saying, oh no, no, no, check this up. It's so much more than this.

Dave: With this, Chris. I was just saying, we don't have to put this in at all, but this is an example of it. As I'm looking at you, for example. Chris, you're always meant to me... Like your original design is actually very creative and inward and introverted sometimes. So you come off as an extrovert, but there's a lot of things where I think you like doing things by yourself. And it's where your mind goes. Like you can play around with things and do it for a while. And then in the play of things in the solitariness of it all is when a lot of creative things happen. And so I think there's a side of you where people see you as public, maybe extroverted, you really have the solitary side to you.

Dave: That's natural. And I think you learn how to hustle because you had to, because of whatever background you had, that wasn't easy to grow up in, you had to hustle it. But you're normally very natural in terms of just being able to be at ease being by yourself, wandering and playing around. And that's where you're going to probably be the most creative. It's not when you're trying to force it. And then Moi, for example, Moi is also super creative. She was always curious, like always one who questioned things. And then she'd get lost in her imaginations. And I would just see her dreaming about things and always asking multilayered questions. And then she probably got stunned sometimes when people said things or did something. It was shocking to her, because she could never imagine such ill will or evil because things were more fairy like, or Disney-esque in a way as she was younger.

Dave: So that's the kind of thing, as we look at each other, I could be totally wrong what I just said to you guys, but as I'm listening to you, I'm trying to feel what's God doing in you? And it's more fun then. It's more fun because I want to affirm the beauty in who you are. And when you can do that in the space of work where you're stopping, you're looking at a person you're really listening to the person and you're listening to the holy spirit, and then I don't care if they're Christian or not. It doesn't matter, they're human. Rarely do they have someone that listens and sees them and rarely does someone point out something that's beautiful about them. And then when you do that, you experience the presence of God. Like if I thought I experienced his presence just in that two minutes that I was interacting with both of you individually.

Tim: See what I mean, people? But I think there's something there, Dave, that I'm so curious about, about you and how you are aware, because I think your gift is presence. We're talking about practicing the presence of God, but if God is in us, we are actually present with him and present in the moment and you are so present everywhere you are. I mean, I'm sure there are moments where you are not present, but you've put into rhythms in your life where you're practicing presence, always. There's something there that is so beautiful. And I'm just trying to get down to the bottom of what that is and what are the practices just in rhythms that just to start to even move towards that awareness of people. And it might just even literally be a spiritual gift that he's given you and you are this awesome right pointer finger, and that's what you get to have. And I get to be the left toe which is awesome, and I'm totally great with that.

Dave: Okay. So this is where I need to really probably deconstruct that illusion of like my-

Tim: Perfect, please do.

Dave: ... unique giftedness. I'm probably the worst, one of the worst ever in terms of listening and all that I'm still practicing. I got such a long way to go. And how do you go about it? I don't know if sometimes it's discipline, but it's first I think acknowledging pain in your life and then letting pain have its process, which is to bring you to a point of being a good listener and observer. All of us have some type of pain, but we busy ourselves maybe trying to cover up the pain and we anesthetized it by activity or words. So the moment that the Lord used for me, there's two moments that were significant. That helped me. One was after just a few years of marriage, I was really super busy running around the church. It was a mega church and I was taking care of everything.

Dave: But I was about to go to sleep at night, and if you asked me how my relationship with my wife is, I would tell you, man, she's my best friend. And we get on really well. But then that night my wife looked at me right before bed, she says, Dave is like, I was about to go into REMS sleep, where when I hit the bed, I'm out. But just, all of a sudden this voice comes out because she's a contemplator she thinks about everything that's said throughout the day, and then she goes, hey David, I think you really don't know me. And I just like go mm. And then I said with intrepidation what do you mean? She goes, I think you really don't listen to me.

Dave: And the next several hours, we unpacked that and she was right. But it was a shocking revelation to me because literally I thought we were close and I was living in this illusion of closeness when she was feeling very distant, because I looked in her eyes and it was scary. I see like an emotional distancing for her protection. And so I said, "Hey, give me a chance." I said, "I really didn't know." And then I went to God about this. I said, "Why did I live in this illusion? What are you trying to teach me?" He goes, well, if you have trouble listening to a person, you see, how difficult do you think it is to listen to a person you don't see? And it was so convicting. Because again, I had an illusion of my spirituality and it was an illusion.

Dave: I was doing activity of spirituality, but not really connecting relationally and in a way that was integrated. And so anyways. So I'm not a good listener by nature, because I do think by nature, we are meant to listen well, because that's why I tell people, there are people who have an elite level maybe of hearing, but I think for most human beings you can do above ever because it's a muscle that you have. Because he gave you ears, number one, and then he also gave us ability to concentrate and absorb. So that's why babies heads are so big. They're absorbing so much information when they're young and they're processing so much data. They're not speaking, they're just processing they're mumbling or whatever, but the information's coming in.

Dave: So I think we have the muscle to listen, but then for whatever reason, whether it's our self-esteem issues, our abuse or problems that we suffer. We just start talking too much and try to cover up too much, or we keep things in, don't know how to express it. So I think everybody can develop this muscle and then it gets better as you practice it. You just have to see that, yeah, I'm going to screw it up, but I'm going to practice it. And a lot of it happens at the highest levels when you can resolve conflict and deal with your triggers. Those are the two things that will help is conflict resolution and your triggers to take your listening to another level.

Tim: To take your listening to another level. So I hope you can see how Dave has practiced and developed a rhythm, him of listening in his life. I got to experience it firsthand just as his friend. And I want that. I want this ability to see what God sees. We're going to jump into just some questions for Dave here in a second. But after that, Dave then launches back in to Chris and to Emmoe, and speaks into their lives from what he is seeing. As he's listening through his eyes, through his spiritual eyes, What might it look like for you to practice this week? Seeing with Jesus's eyes?

Tim: Who might he in front of you this week to just be more aware of what he's already doing and what he wants to speak to people through you? So then at the very end, Chris and Moe, and I just kind of sat there after Dave left the call and we just discussed and we recorded it. So I think that'll be encouraging to you as well. Here we go. Thank you. I think we can do this for next five hours.

Emmoe: Yes.

Tim: And Dave, before you go, can we ask you a few speed round questions? This is like first thing that comes to your mind. When I dance, I look like? The speed around.

Dave: Oh yeah. Well, I really don't dance too much. So I look like someone who is very awkward.

Tim: Perfect. I love that. Okay. The eighties first thing comes to your mind.

Dave: Cool clothes.

Tim: Yeah. Right. Totally. What I mean? Okay. Let's go seventies

Dave: Childlike.

Tim: Ooh. What's that mean? That's the first thing that came to your mind was a childlike about the seventies?

Dave: Yeah. It was like the burgeoning of creativity from the sixties. And so I think the revolutions were happy in the sixties and so I think there's a new child likeness to looking at what needs to be created for the new world.

Tim: Oh, goodnight. That went somewhere I didn't expect. Okay. Pet peeves, Dave.

Dave: It's probably like things that are less scattered and messy around places that should be elegant and minimalistic.

Tim: Is that metaphorical or is this like literal, like in a room?

Dave: It's literal.

Tim: Give me an example of that.

Dave: Well, it's like my desk area right now. Like there's stuff that people put around it, that they shouldn't put around it.

Emmoe: I love that.

Tim: You didn't put it around there. Someone else did.

Dave: Yeah. It kind of makes me feel like uncomfortable.

Chris: I have the same thing.

Tim: Three words to describe yourself quick, go.

Dave: Fun, exploratory, cultural.

Emmoe: These are solid answers. Geez.

Tim: They're so good. Okay. Favorite show ever?

Dave: Matrix was always my number one movie.

Tim: Yes. Yes.

Dave: I think that's a common one. I think animation would be the Man Who Planted Trees.

Tim: I've not seen that. Oh, please. The Man Who Planted Trees.

Dave: It's a free one on... Just type it in YouTube or Vimeo. It's very slow moving, but then it's beautiful in terms of an evolution of life and our purpose.

Chris: Looking that up. I already bought the book you were talking about while we were talking.

Tim: The Humility of God?

Chris: Yes.

Dave: Just take your time. That book, it's like a piece of meat. Good meat. You just got to take your time. Don't feel like you've got to read it through, because I'm literally only in chapter three, and I've been in it for three weeks and it's just been [crosstalk 00:43:18] this is such a refreshing read for me.

Tim: Well, Dave, thank you. So, so grateful for you. Thanks for your time, man. You've got so much going on and you would spend it with us. So thank you.

Dave: Well, it's great being with you guys. I wanted you to be encouraged because I wanted you to feel free to recover who you are not to be afraid. Because I think sometimes we're shaped by things people didn't say, but also people that did say some things that were very hurtful. And so we respond to it by acting a certain way. And Moi, you have a gift to, I think, write specifically to, and not to be afraid to write and to communicate. Speak and write. So your voice needs to be heard more. Don't beat yourself up from what others said. It's really important. You have a lot of really great thoughts and thinking... Just speak up more and people want to hear what you have to say. And Chris, I see you leading by playfulness. A lot of your creativity will come from play and sometimes it's taking trips like wandering, meandering around stuff. So when you get stuck, just take a trip.

Chris: Let's go. I love it.

Tim: Go so good. Thank you, Dave.

Chris: You're welcome.

Tim: Thank you for blessing us today, man-

Emmoe: Thank you.

Tim: I mean, and it's so funny just to me, the word blessing has taken on such different meeting when somebody is a blessing, that's kind of what that looks like. So people that speak up. Let's listen, speak up.

Chris: Thank you.

Dave: May God bless you guys as you continue to feel his presence, even in that room.

Tim: Thanks man.

Emmoe: Thank you.

Tim: Okay. So how'd that go? Why did that bring you tears?

Emmoe: I think it's because it shocks you when you're fully seen. And I think it shook me that I hadn't said a word and he knew. And I was like, oh my gosh. And I think it just affirms that God really does hear all of the unsaid. And I was like, oh my goodness, obviously this is a safe space. And so I'm happy that it was here, but there are moments where I'm like, I don't know how to show up. And then for someone to be like, I'm seeing you not show up. I was like, it didn't feel shameful, it just felt like, God was like, I see you struggling. And I'm like, oh. And there's just few moments when someone's just like zoning in on you, and not asking anything in return. Like I'm just saying this for a benefit.

Emmoe: And I hadn't said a word. I hadn't said a word. And I was trying to say words and I've been trying to say words for weeks, and It was just crazy that someone who doesn't know me was able to say the things that God knows about me. And I was like, oh my gosh. It's just those moments where you're like, no, you're real. You're real and you really do love me. You really do see me. And I didn't have to do something to be understood.

Tim: You're just seen.

Emmoe: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It just kind of shook me. So I think I'm emotional because I'm like, it wasn't just like, this is your beauty. It was like, and also stop hiding. And I was like I'm trying. I'm trying.

Tim: He was calling out something that already exists. I mean, and not just in a, I love your heart. I love the way you do this. It wasn't a rebuke. It was an invitation almost from God. And I love that, how he's like... And I remember when he would do this with my kids and with us, it wasn't like, this is the gospel. It's like, I take this for what it's worth. I don't know, I could totally be wrong. And I love that even ability to be curious and throw it out there.

Emmoe: Yeah. And I don't know the specific details, like, and I think you write. And I'm like, I do and I feel stuck. And I think don't speak up. And I'm like, I don't. Stop it-

Chris: Quit looking at me. [crosstalk 00:47:47] your eyes.

Emmoe: Don't look me, man. I was like, when is it Chris' turn again? I was like, come on, man. I'm struggling today. But even like the rebuke part, I think I've been rebuking myself. And so for him to not do it, again, went back to permission. Like you're allowed to still feel like you want to hide, but maybe you shouldn't. So I was like, okay, I'm not feeling rushed to process why I feel so distant lately, but I'm not so distant that God can't see that I'm struggling. Does that make sense? And it was just so gentle. I was like [inaudible 00:48:36]. So I mean, my tears... I'm a hot mess right now. We won't take pictures for the show notes. But I think it's more of being touched by God than, than being exposed by God. I think it's more of him just inviting me to be transparent without it being not enough?

Emmoe: So I was like, I can be struggling right now and it's still be beautiful and enough. And someone called it out and I was like, yeah, that's something that's where you are. I was like, okay, just crazy. That was a crazy moment. And to know that could exist at any moment, if we were willing to acknowledge going back to being filled by the fact that we are blessed to bless others, and maybe that's the core of it. Like maybe I'm not in a place where I've been feeling like I could bless others. So I don't show up. It's layered he's right. I ask multi-layered questions. I get lost in these layers and I was like, listen, bro, it's only been 35 minutes, but yeah. It's wild.

Tim: Yeah. And Chris, he nailed you pretty-

Chris: He nailed me so hard.

Emmoe: He did. I was looking at you like, oh my God.

Chris: I don't have a clue how. I was like, this is Zoom guys.

Emmoe: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Chris: He's like, yeah, I'm an introvert like big time. And I've had to learn how to be an extrovert because of what I do. And because I've learned that that's what got me the thing I needed. Right?

Tim: Because of your past, I mean, he [crosstalk 00:50:27]

Chris: Of my past, like, hey, be good at this. Be good at that, and it will take care of all these other things. So that's how I've lived my whole life. And I don't freaking play. Like, I'm bad at it, I don't like to do it. I like, I feel like adulthood has been this journey of, I'm not going to get emotional, maybe I am, Lord. But like, it's been this journey of figuring out how to do that again. And in my head, I think like, who was I when I was like 17 or nine? And so it's these moments of figuring out how to play and I don't know how he saw that other than like the spirit of God speaking through him. And so now I'm going to go book a trip. I don't know. I'm going to do what he told me to do.

Emmoe: Because it ends up aligning with what you do really want to do.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was just talking to Kenzie about stuff last night about just in the nature of all of these things where I'm trying to show up and create or do things, or honestly create my own path or way. And I was just like, I don't know how to do the next one. And I literally told her, I was like, I don't think what I've done is going to work again. And that's how I went to sleep last night. And so waking up and hearing that I'm like, okay. Well I'm going to go book a trip and see if I can, what it is, and just let it go and try to find that playfulness. But yeah, he got me. I can sit in a room by myself and be perfectly happy. That's my happy place most of the time.

Chris: So that's powerful. And so for me now, like what I'm think is like, well, how the heck do I become that person for other people? And can I make somebody else that I've known for 30 minutes feel as good as he made us feel? That seems like kingdom of heaven stuff to me.

Tim: Totally. And it's not just feeling good, because I can say empty words that are just sweet and like you're so pretty today or Chris, your voice is so great, or you're such a good basketball player.

Chris: [crosstalk 00:52:52] good at that. And that's part of like the coping mechanism or whatever we're doing to like control a situation. You can be funny. We can put on these things, but he didn't do that. He like came to the core of us.

Tim: Yeah. There was like a actual spirit leading thing. It's like when I was on the road with the Big Daddy Weave guys and they said, "We pray with people after every single night." And that was the Encore. And they're like, don't just pray over people with your psychology. Like with the things that we know how to say, I know how to pray and get you to feel this way at the end of a prayer. I just do. And they're like, that might help people for a night. But what is what's God actually saying, what's he maybe want to say to this person? How do you, in a sense, join him in that moment saying something to those people, because that's going to last a lifetime. And it was almost like, that's what he just did right there. Is he is listening to the spirit of God while listening to you.

Tim: It's just this crazy rhythm. That's why I was asking like how do you do it, man? And so I don't know what the practice is. I don't know if you guys heard what the practice was. I mean, he was talking about see, know, affirm and give.

Chris: I love that.

Emmoe: Yeah. That right there.

Tim: There just different rhythm and awareness that I want to walk with in this realm with spiritual eyes. So I'm so happy that he did that with you.

Chris: Man. [crosstalk 00:54:19] just like time out. I got something to say. You don't have to put this in. I was like, that's that made me [crosstalk 00:54:29] I don't know.

Emmoe: I was like, I'm down. And I was like, I had Chris got him. But then when he said my name, I was like, no, please. Don't put me in coach, the one time.

Tim: Okay. People. Well, that's, that's all we got. We're just going to go cry somewhere.

Chris: That was good.

Emmoe: Yeah. That was in eighties [crosstalk 00:54:49].

Tim: So I guess our encouragement this week and whatever you're getting out of this people, please let us know what you're hearing and what you heard and maybe what the spirit of God might be telling you to remind us of. But this idea of seeing what's going on, not just listening, but it's like listening through seeing and just awareness of all the things going on. Presence. And then knowing people's story, which I think there's also a spiritual element of that because there's a... I mean, he heard both of your stories without you saying anything.

Chris: Without us giving in anything. Yes.

Tim: So that's like a spiritual level of knowing people's story. It's a presence with the spirit in that giving, which is an action.

Chris: It could be a lot of different things.

Tim: Yeah. Anyways, you people, you probably know more than we do because we just sat here listening and all.

Chris: We're processing along with you. [crosstalk 00:55:45].

Emmoe: No-one's really blinked in like a minute.

Tim: Okay. Bye.