021: Find Soul Rest

Author/Podcast Host of “Finding Soul Rest” Curtis Zackery joins us this week and breaks down how doing Jesus stuff without Jesus affects the way we see ourselves and robs us from the rest we seek daily.

This week’s Practice:

Find Soul Rest

+ 021 Find Soul Rest - 'CZ' Curtis Zackery Transcript

Tim: Hey everybody. Welcome to 10,000 minute ... Chaka Khan. Hey everybody. Welcome to the 10,000 minute experiment. My name is Timothy Howard Timmons. And to my left is Chris Cleveland.

Chris: Hey, guys.

Tim: And Emmoe Doniz to my right.

Emmoe: Hello.

Tim: And in front of us, it's a new platform, you guys.

Chris: I heard about this.

Emmoe: Not Sponsored, but hopefully.

Tim: No. It's a new platform that we're using and it's powerful, you guys. It's called Zoom.

Emmoe: Yeah. It's got chat in it. No one uses it.

Tim: We've got CZ in front of us.

CZ: What's up?

Tim: CZ, give us a little rundown on your name because one of my first questions I ever asked you was talk about your name. And Chris said, "Is that his real name?" So, just give us a little bit of your life.

CZ: Yeah. There's not much to it. So, my name is Curtis Zackery, but ever since I was a little kid, friends and family have called me CZ. My dad's name was Curtis as well. So, one of the funny tidbits about my name is, before I was born, my dad was pretty adamant that he didn't want me to be named Curtis. I don't know if it was he didn't want associations maybe with his reputation in our city or whatever, but my mom really wanted me to be named Curtis. And so, his big thing was I can't be junior, so I can't be Curtis Junior. So, on my birth certificate, I'm Curtis Zackery II. So, I don't know what the difference is, but he was really pushing for that. So, there you go.

Tim: Well, what's so great is your mom and dad and wife have all actually emailed us and we've had a lot of conversations. And we're going to bring them in a second. And we're just going to talk about daddy issues.

CZ: That's amazing. That's wonderful

Emmoe: I didn't look at the door this time.

CZ: I love it.

Tim: So, this is going to be a great episode. You didn't know, but do you know what? Surprise. So, you guys, welcome. Come on in. Hello. Welcome back friends. Thank you again for listening to another 10,000 minute experiment podcast. I just want to stop and say thank you to [Brian H 00:00:02:02], to [Jennifer C 00:02:05], and to [Chris K 00:02:06] for jumping in financially. And we don't have a patron page, but we are actually funded by you. So, we would love it if you guys would want to jump in with these friends. So, thank you, guys. It means so much. So truly honored.

Tim: So, if you guys want to learn more about 10,000 minutes, please go to 10000minutes.com, and there're a bunch of ways to donate there. You can check out different resources there. You can sign up for the free encouraging text messages that we send out every single week. Today we've got Curtis Zackery or CZ as we call him. And he's just a really great guy that has a lot of wisdom and a lot of great invitations for us as far as rest is concerned. Okay, here we go. So, you live in the Franklin, Tennessee, which we all live in the Franklin, Tennessee.

CZ: I love the Franklin, Tennessee. But, sure. I'll go with that.

Tim: Well, I'm from the California and so everything we do, we put "The" in front of everything, the 65, the 405.

CZ: That's fair. I've got you.

Tim: That's fair. Where are you originally from?

CZ: So, I grew up in New Jersey. Was there until I graduated high school, and then went to college in Virginia. And then, bounced from there to Nashville in 2001. I lived here for 10 years, met my wife here, and then we moved to California. And we lived there for four years, and then moved back to Franklin seven years ago.

Tim: Dizzy.

CZ: All about it. Let's go.

Tim: I'm dizzy. So, you should know the podcast, the California. So, we have many a mutual friends and I'm so sad and embarrassed. I was literally just talking to somebody the other day that was just saying how you've been such a huge mentor in their lives. I will remember by the end of this podcast, I'll just blout ... Blout?

Chris: Blout.

Tim: It's a cool new name.

CZ: I like it.

Emmoe: We just don't have a lot of time, so we're just shaking our words.

Tim: I will blurt out the name at some point, but people just love you. And you've put your thumbprint on so many people, and I'm sure they've shaped you as well. But, you have such a great name in this town. And I know you've taught a lot of different places and you've taught for our community at Journey Church before, and they loved you. So, I just want to get into some of the stuff that you know, because it sounds like the stuff that you're leaning into right now is stuff that I don't think I need, but I feel like these two next to me really need.

Emmoe: Yeah.

CZ: That's fair. I've got you.

Tim: So, CZ, give us just a little bit of background on how you've got to where you are now. So, you've got this whole thing called find rest that you're doing. And you've got a book out called Finding Soul Rest; 40 Day devotional. So, just give us a little background on what was the problem that got you to this place. Go. Again, this is for the two people to my [crosstalk 00:04:56].

CZ: That's right. So, I think the real crux of it all was when we moved to California, we were living and serving in a very under-resourced area. It's a city called Richmond just outside of San Francisco. And the type of work and relationships that we were a part of was so beautiful and so meaningful, but the one thing that I started to recognize very quickly was there wasn't a sense of resolve when it came to what ministry and life situations look like on a daily basis, where having lived in Franklin for a while and done ministry things, so much of it was connective to what I could do according to my gift set, just my abilities, my force of will to bring my full self to whatever it was that I was doing. And there, in California, there were so many situations like homeless friends who we were trying to help find a place to live, people who were walking through recovery and addiction and would relapse and things like that.

CZ: A lot of marital issues with very complex relational dynamics and people transitioning from prison into civilian life and all that comes with that. And so, I just started recognizing that, as much as I loved what we were doing, I just wasn't really sure I'd be able to sustain it for very long in the way that I was living at the current time. And then, second, during that season, my wife and I were hopeful to become pregnant and have children. And we did have a pregnancy, but then we very quickly into the pregnancy lost that pregnancy and it was really sad. And then, about six months later, we became pregnant again. We carried further into the pregnancy, and then at about two in the morning, we had to go to the emergency room only to lose another pregnancy. So, I think it was the first part of that story where my identity interwoven with what I did, what did it look like to sustain in a healthy way, coupled with the questions and the grief that came with experiencing loss.

CZ: I think the third piece was we felt like we were on an island. We had friends around us, but in the moments where I would start to find a little window where I could share in vulnerability, I would have people reflect back to me, "Well, you're the guy we would normally come to when we're going to go through hard things." So, all that together just culminated in me saying, "I don't really know what's next, but something needs to change. And I need to figure out what it means to love Jesus apart from what I do." And there was a quote that I read by a guy named Soren Kierkegaard, and he said it is absolutely unethical when one becomes so busy communicating that he forgets to be what he teaches. And I think that's what ultimately summarizes that season for me. So, that's what got me into the conversation. And then, from there, God began to do his work.

Tim: So, how do you deal with that now? Are there practices that you're putting in to help you move towards Jesus again, to actually owning what you're preaching/teaching?

CZ: Yeah. I would say, one of the things that I realized when I stepped into that season of consideration is really what I would call it, I felt like God asked me a question and it was very formative for the journey ahead. And it basically was, "If I took away all the things that you got to do for me, would you love and worship me with the same passion?" And very quickly and sadly, I knew my answer was no. The distinction was, he didn't ask, "Do you love me?" Because that would've been an immediate yes. But essentially, what he was getting at is, "Am I enough for you, just you and I, apart from any function, apart from any duty, apart from any responsibility?" And I started to realize that it wasn't about what people saw in me, it wasn't a perception that I held value in. It was just my belief that my true worth and value to God was completely interwoven with what I did.

CZ: And that was something that felt like a strangle hold on my life. That's the part that was not sustainable. It was basically the realization that God had intended for me to find contentment and this soulish rest in him alone. And unknowingly, I had begun to live in a way that I had allowed other things to become my solace, to be my identity, my strength, even when it came to God type stuff. It was not him alone, it was the stuff around him. And that's very convicting and very sobering, but I also knew at that time, that was not what I wanted my life to be. I wasn't content to stay in that place. So, to answer your question, I think that allowed me to move forward with intention to say, "All right. What does it mean for me to know that he is enough for me alone?"

CZ: And it caused me to begin to really dig into the intention God had for humanity from the very beginning, which was to find this soulish contentment. I think about Ecclesiastes, chapter three, where it says, "God set eternity in the hearts of humankind so that they wouldn't know the beginning or the end." And so often, I find myself tempted to try to satisfy this eternal soulish longing for God alone, with things that are not God, and maybe on the surface might have God type names attached to them, but that's not enough.

Tim: Like? Examples.

CZ: Yeah. Examples would be ministry. I think working for God is one of the greatest barriers to intimacy with God. And I think it's important for us to know that it's possible to work for God without God. Another quote that comes to mind is Mother Teresa once said, "Pray for me that I not loosen my grip on the hand of Jesus, even under the guise of ministering to the poor." So, she was basically saying, "Pray I don't do a bunch of Jesus stuff without Jesus."

Tim: Ooh! Do Jesus stuff without Jesus. I feel like I've done that most of my life. And if you've been listening to these or if you know me at all, you know that I'm always talking about the moment about 12 years ago when I stopped working for Jesus and I just said, ""I'm just going to start walking with you." And it's one of the reasons why I write this X on my wrist every single morning. One, that I woke up again today. One of the other ones is just to join Jesus on what he's already doing, but every day I just seem to forget. And I keep doing Jesus stuff without Jesus.

Tim: And in this world and in all the ways that we think we're trying to do stuff for him and really hold good boundaries and good lines for God, I'm just curious if we're doing more stuff for him or if we're doing it with him. So, this week, as we're going to practice resting with Jesus, let's just start out by just being more aware of the times we're doing things for him, we're doing things with him. If you need rest like I do, get ready because there's some pretty great stuff ahead.

CZ: Whether it's more noble godly working things that can become that fulfillment, or it can be things like medicating and vegging out and trying to find ways to distract myself from the tensions and the realities that come from what life presents and that only God can fulfill and restore. So, I think it set me on a journey. It was about a year long process that I took, which was essentially a sabbatical that reformed and reshaped what intentional life would look like, so that now, life doesn't reach that place where I'm out of rhythm and out of sorts.

Tim: So, as we talk about this, this is like a ministry conversation in a sense. And I'm putting that in quotes like, "Christian people in Christian work." You have things to say and to invite them into. So, whoever's listening, if you have people that are in "Ministry", and I'm putting that in quotes, this would be really helpful for them. And the majority of people that are listening to this are not people in "Ministry." I think we all are because obviously I think that you'd say the same exact thing that none of us are actually working for Jesus, we're walking with him, and all of us are ministers, if you will. We all get to love people well and represent Jesus. But, how would you put this into that platform, into their lives?

CZ: Yeah. I would definitely say I'm telling my story because that's what is true about my journey. My vocation was that of a minister. It was somebody who was connected as a vocation to the church. So, it definitely has brought, for my heart, a very focused and passionate care for other people who are in a similar plight. So, I definitely love to encourage and come alongside those who are in ministry. But, all of that being said, as I'm telling my story, you can basically fill in the blank with whatever your thing is. And there is no distinction amongst all of us around the importance of who we are or what we do based upon the titles of our jobs and things like that. So, all of these principles really hold true because a lot of us would say, aside from any fancy church talk or whatever, it's possible to arrive at a place where we realize that our identity are worth in value are found more in what we do than who we are and who we understand ourselves to be relative to God.

CZ: And I would even say that conversation is important connective to people who might not even necessarily follow the way of Jesus. You get to a point where you understand that there is a longing for deeper meaning and purpose in life and the way that we're living moving forward doesn't feel sustainable any longer. And so, I would just say these things hold true there. But, I think the verse in Matthew 11, that's very familiar to a lot of people when it comes to the conversation about rest, is he's standing in front of this crew, the rule setters and the rule followers, and he says, "Come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my teaching, learn from me. I'm gentle and lowly in heart, and you'll find rest for your souls."

CZ: The thing that I would say is universal to everyone is the fatigue and the unsettledness and the unrest that many of us feel is not a surface one. It's not one that gets resolved from vacation or from time off. It's really this deep sense of fulfillment and contentment that we can't really find resolve in our own pursuits. And that's where it relates to every person because anyone who's listening might go, "Yeah. I can resonate with that, or there are parts of my life that I feel are maybe deficient or need a little bit of filling." And that's how I would say it relates to everybody.

Chris: I love this. This is literally like with stars. I talk about three things, value, worth and identity, which you've summed up really well. So, I basically have a spiel every night that's almost word for word what you just said when I go and play. And we've got a really similar story. In 2017 was at a point in life where I was touring full time, saw my family 45 minutes a week, working at one of the largest churches in the country, burn out ministry, all for Jesus, but losing everything in the midst of it. Moved to Tennessee, bought a house with that C in it, moved across the country by ourselves, took six months off like your sabbatical thing, and reframed and figured out what rest was. I wrestled with rest. I'm like a three Enneagram, which for anybody who doesn't know what that means is I find all of my value in achieving.

Tim: Nailing it.

Chris: Yeah. I just want to kill it. So, stopping was really difficult for me. Also, and I wonder if you felt this, the other thing that hit me as a three really hard was how typical this is. So, your story and my story are really similar. And it's probably really similar to a lot of people out there where, even if you're not in ministry, you've sacrificed your life on the altar of achieving something. So, I think this is cool in a couple of ways. One, and I'd love to hear you talk about this a little bit, the difference between your identity and who God sees you as, and then your identity it's like, "Who were you seeing yourself as in those moments?"

Chris: Because I know, in those moments for me, it was less about "Does God still love me?" I didn't have those questions if I'm not doing these works. It was like, "Am I actually worthy as a human being if I'm not doing these things?" And so, that's where I came at it from that. So, if I'm not on stage, if I'm not traveling, if I'm not achieving, if I'm not doing these things aside from the whole God thing, I'm just a worthless human being. And that's where my value and worth and identity were attached. So, a lot of things I talk about is attaching them in a healthy way to God. So, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts there. And then, the other thing I'm curious about is what does soul rest look like for us now? And I know what that looks like for me, but I'd love to hear what that is for you and how you walk people through that.

Tim: So, the first question, in a sense, that he was asking was how did you see yourself? And we talk about being a sober and drunk often, not on the wines, but just on fear or identity or on all these things. So, when you're drunk, even now or then, how do you see yourself? How does that get you in trouble?

CZ: Yeah. So, just to make sure there's a level of breadth as well. You were talking about the distinction between a ministry conversation versus everyone else. Another thing that's important is talking about the distinction between personality composition. It's not just achievers that feel this sense of burnout or appending burnout, because I would even say my personality composition is not one of building, making, going, doing. I'm not one that has to achieve and thrive off of the recognition connected to that. I'm more of the other way. I'm more of a "What are you doing? How can I help you do that?" And rather be behind the scenes thing. But really, what it comes down to is the significance and the value we hold to God, our view of who God is and what we mean to him.

CZ: And so often we interweave those personality traits in the way that they manifest out, lived out on earth here amongst other people, and we correlate them to God as well. So again, for me, if I'm not an achiever, maker, doer to show God what I can do or show people what I can do, I'm a helper. So, I'm going, "How can I help people?" But, I'm also going, "God, am I doing enough to help you? Am I helping you here on earth do your thing?" And again, you go down to each different variant around personality composition. And those things that are strengths about who you are, they can easily become this correlation around "How do I do that relative to who you are, God?" And then, when I start to feel deficient in that, or I feel like I need to overcompensate things like that, that's where, like you said, Tim, there's the lack of sobriety around perspective.

CZ: Maybe it's me in unhealth operating in a way where it feels like whatever my personality composition is, for my case, it was to help and to hold value to people in a sense that I'm doing enough, I'm doing more, I have something to offer, I have meaning and purpose to give. So therefore, if I'm out of rhythm, then I feel like I'm never doing enough, I'm never helping enough, there's not enough of me to go around for people or for God. And so, that's where, for me, I started to see the unhealth and me being out of balance. And it was really important to try to figure out what did it look like for me to be able to be still enough to understand that, in my stillness, there was still the possibility that I could hold value to God.

CZ: And that's what's terrifying. And that's also what is interwoven with this whole idea of Sabbath. So, that's a word, if you're in church, you probably have heard before. If you don't go to church or read a Bible or whatever, it's this idea of a ceasing or stopping. There's this rhythm every seven days, this idea that you're supposed to take a break. And what's interesting about the Sabbath, and you can talk about it in all different ways and representations, but for our purposes, I would say the Sabbath is a gift because in the Bible it talks about for six days you'll work, and on the seventh day, you don't work. So, if we're not careful, we can think, "Well, that's all the Sabbath is. It's to get a break and it's a rule to of follow so God will be pleased with you or not be pleased with you if you don't do it." That's not what the Sabbath is.

CZ: Sabbath is you work for six days with your hands. It's a work that only you can do with your energy, your work, your purposes. On the seventh day, you do no work to remember the work that could only be done by the hand of God. And on that day, we have to ask the question, is it enough? Is his working and my not working satisfying? Or, is there something in me that's so itchy that just has to keep going, keep doing, keep building, keep working, that I can't even stop and trust that God is working while I am resting? So, that is really, for me, the crux of that piece of it. And then, moving into your second question, one of the big mistakes that we make in life in our culture is we equate rest and laziness all the time.

CZ: They're synonymous. So, it doesn't matter if you're in a faith conversation, if you work in the business world, real estate, rest if you are stopping. That means you are lazy. You're not working. So, you are not working as correlated with you don't want to work or you're lazy. So, anytime the idea of rest feels like it's either necessary or presented to us, we have this natural aversion to it to go, "Well, I don't want to be lazy, so I need to keep going." Another lie that we believe, and this is connective to a bit of your story, is sometimes we start saying, "Well, I love what I do so much. I don't really need to take a break. Why would I ever need to stop doing something that I really dig?"

CZ: And when you started talking about what does it look like for us now, I was talking to a friend of mine, he's a long haul trucker, and so he drives 18 wheelers, and he was telling me about how so often, when you see those trucks in the ditch or whatever or this truck is flipped over and spilled all the stuff all over the highway, he said nine times out of 10, that driver just was exhausted. He didn't get enough rest. And he is not fit in that state to operate that vehicle. They have these strict regulations where you need to get enough rest in order to take these long haul rides. And he said there would be times where he was driving and he would be seeing hallucinations, stuff popping out of the road. And so, basically, when he was sharing that, it just clicked in my brain that we need to learn to work from rest.

CZ: We need to learn how rest is not the absence of work, therefore meaning deficiency of our character and our ability. But, it's from rest that we're able to sustain, be whole, to be healthy, to make sound decisions. Think about that truck. If you're so tired that it's equivalent to a DUI, I don't want you making big decisions with heavy machinery. And sadly, what I've found for so many people, especially people that I work with in ministry conversations, people who have had moral failures, made really terrible decisions in leadership positions, it's because they were tired and they were operating heavy machinery and they were making poor decisions. And so, moving forward, that's one of the things that helps you to learn how to find that rest moving ahead.

Chris: Yeah. What does that look like day to day practically?

Tim: Great question.

CZ: Yeah. So, one of the things that I always try to shy away from is making a prescriptive set of things that you need to follow in order for you to achieve that because, just like you're asking now, that's always the first question that comes after I talk. Everybody's saying, "Man, that's so dope. I see what you're saying. I see it in the Bible. It all sounds great."

Chris: Can you give me a checklist and knock it off?

CZ: Just what do I need to do today? And so, what I always say is there are three words that I think are important when it comes to deciding what these rhythms look like on a daily basis. The first word is intentional. We need to show up for the thing that we're hoping to experience. That might seem like it's a foregone conclusion, but to be honest, there are a lot of people, especially in the faith conversation, who are going, "Man, I follow Jesus, but I still feel like I'm spinning my wheels. And I don't feel like this meaning and purpose. I don't feel like I'm connecting with God. I don't really feel like I'm finding rest." And I ask a simple question. Well, what are you doing in order to try to find these things that you're hoping for? And they're like, "Well, nothing. I'm just hoping it comes."

CZ: And so, it might seem like a simplification, but we need to be intentional. So, if it's five minutes a day of leaving your phone behind and walking around your block, if it's five minutes a day of opening the scripture and reading some principles from Jesus, if it's five minutes a day of meditation instilling your mind and your thoughts, whatever that thing is, we need to be intentional to say, "I'm making space to receive the thing that I'm hoping for." The second word I would say is we need to approach it with a heart that is substantial. We don't want to be flippant with it. We actually want to show up to the thing that we're trying to do. So, for example [crosstalk 00:27:52].

Chris: Priority.

CZ: Yeah. Not only just priority in practice, but priority in meaning. And what I mean by that is there have been times where I've said, "Do you know what? I feel a little disconnected from God. I'm going to read the Bible every day for 30 days for 30 minutes." And I was able to do it. I clicked the switch and I was ... The problem is, on the other side of that, the only thing I got from it was the ability to say, "I read the Bible for 30 days." That was it. But, what I started to see was there's a difference when I'm intentional like that, but also, I begin to show up to that thing saying, "I believe I can meet God here. I believe that when I do this, there's no inherent spirituality in the act. It's who I meet when I'm doing the act." And so, I think that's what started to change for me.

CZ: And so, maybe it doesn't look like the regimen being so rigid every single day around a certain amount of time. Maybe it requires for me to be able to bring my full self to say, "It's only five minutes a day. It's only this one thing." And then, the third word would be sustainable. What in your life can you see as a sustainable rhythm for the foreseeable future? Now again, that might be, "All right. I'm going to do five minutes, one day a week, bringing my full self to God and hoping that I can meet with him." Now, some people might go, "Ah man! See, that's not enough. What is that going to do? Five minutes, one time a week, bringing your full self." To which I would say, "How many minutes a week are you intentionally showing up, opening your hands, trusting God to meet you in that space unencumbered by anything else?"

CZ: And so, that's why I say I try to not to make it prescriptive for others. For me, what that looks like is I try very diligently before I get into the rhythm of my day to not mess with my phone in any way, whether it's text messages, emails, missed phone calls. I don't have social media on my phone. So, even things that are [crosstalk 00:30:01] very practical, very necessary, I just try to build a rhythm that will allow me to make space intentionally for me to commune with God. Try to go outside, maybe take a deep breath. Just give him the space to go, "Today I want to start with what you're filling me with rather than what everything else is filling me with." And so, that's just one small way, but I could talk about different options all day. But, I think those three words are the most important thing.

Chris: Do you find that community serves any aspect in any of this?

CZ: Yeah. It serves complete and total reinforcement and encouragement and carrying forward for it to truly be healthy and sustainable. One of the things that I love the most is, once I made this demonstrative step toward wanting to find health and sustainability and rhythm, it's funny because my community, my friends, people who know me very well, people who are in proximity to my life, had to adjust with me. So, for example, when I say I don't mess with my phone in the morning, if you're trying to get in touch with me in the morning, you have to start learning that I'm not going to respond back in the morning. And so, that's annoying at first and it's challenging for me, but it's a rhythm that's established. So, what's funny about that little small thing, almost universally in my community, especially those who know me very well, it's funny how they are now almost adamant in their contending on my behalf for me to uphold these things that I want to be true.

CZ: So, Tim was talking earlier about being around here in Franklin and having a chance to know some folks here and make a lot of friendships and relationships. And there have been times where I've had someone say, "Hey. I was going to ask you to come and speak at our school or come and talk to our Bible study, but I asked so and so for your phone number, but they told me he probably won't want to do it because he doesn't want to be too busy in his schedule." And I'm like, "I wish you would've called me." But, I think what was really cool about that was community began to contend on my behalf for the sake of what this thing is.

CZ: And that's something that we can all have as an aspirational hope. You're not alone on this journey. It feels very lonely. So, to your questions, like what you just jokingly gave me the Bravo on, when you start saying things like, "Yeah. I'm not really going to rock with social media right now", the first initial thought is, "Oh, you can't do that. You just can't do that." Even your friends, your people who love you. It's like, "Oh, that's cool, but you can't do that." But, you can. And the thing is you just have to be intentional. And that whole substantial thing, this is what I would say as an encouragement, if you hear anything else about the rhythms, sometimes if we want to see substantial change, we need to make a substantial investment. And a lot of times, sadly, what we want to see as results are inequitable with what we want to put in.

Tim: Say that another way.

CZ: Yeah. If I'm going, "Man, I want to see more time in my day for deep breaths and not to feel anxiety connective to my phone and to whatever, well then maybe I need to deactivate my social media for 30 days." And on the surface you're like, "Wait. That's a pretty extreme response." But, what I'm asking to see happen is a pretty big deal too.

Emmoe: Yeah.

CZ: So, one way I think about that, and this is a very sobering thing, in a lot of different relationships and conversations, I get to walk alongside couples who are going through hard seasons and things like that. And there are times where maybe I'll be talking with a husband who's made a mistake in his marriage and now they're looking for reconciliation as a couple. And maybe the wife graciously has said, "Do you know what? I want a journey forward together to find that reconciliation." And he is excited, hopeful that maybe this can happen, but sometimes what I sadly see too often is the hope for that reconciliation and for things to be better again is not equal to what types of substantial changes and investments that guy is willing to make in order to bring that sense of trust back to the table in order to show that things are different, because it's like, "Well, I want everything to go back, but I just want to tweak little dials over here. Is there little things I can do?" And I would just say, "Sometimes there's a substantial investment that's necessary for substantial change."

Chris: Yeah. For you and your story, I was going to ask you this before you brought up that family dynamic, but I was curious what your wife or what your kids would say is different about you on the other side of this rest journey you've been on from who you were before.

CZ: Yeah. I think it's a lot more yeses for them and not yeses for performance or working again, in my case, in ministry for God. It's understanding that there is true value and substance in just being here and just being with my crew. I mean, today's a perfect example. I have things that I need to do today. There are a lot of ministry appointments that I have today, but my little man is not feeling well. And it doesn't now destroy my day and affect who I am as a person feeling like everything has gotten in the way of what I was trying to do. This is what I'm supposed to do and it's enough. And sometimes they, in the past, would probably be victim of me being subservient to an idea about what I needed to be doing for God.

CZ: And this has happened so often and I'm glad that for them at an early age, I was able to see that under the guise of being completely obedient to God and doing what God has called us to do, we sadly too often choose those things instead of our family. And I just want to say it as plainly as that. We have all kinds of spiritual language to fluff that up and make it look nice, but at the end of the day, there are things we need to do that are a priority. We can't always just kick it at home. I get that, but I need my kids, I need my wife to always feel like, even when I can't be home, that what I'm doing, which is important, is not more important than they are. And I need to live in a way and embody a lifestyle that communicates that, not just with my words, but with who I am. And I think that would be the thing prayerfully that if she were to hear she would say, or my kids would say they would see that's different.

Chris: That's awesome. So, you're living from a place of soul rest is really living out of rest, not just taking a break, not just taking time off or time away, but living your life from a place of awareness, from a place of insert all the words that we use all the time, soberness or being awake or all of these things, gratefulness, all those things I can fit in there. Because I can see this, so many ways, being with God, for God, which is what we talk about all the time, but also just for yourself. And that's why I asked you the leading family question there, because I know what my answer is too, and it very much is the same as yours. It's like, "Okay, when life actually happens now and you've got to zoom in to something like this, five years ago, for me, it would've run my day."

Chris: And now, it's like, "Well, I'm going to zoom and I'm going to be with my kids and it's no big deal." So, a place of soul rest is letting some of those things like, "Oh, it's no big deal." This thing where we can be sober in all of the moments and our full selves in all of those moments as well, which does connect us more truly to God and what he's able to do through us, and the community around us.

CZ: Yeah.

Tim: You talked about contentment earlier. That word has become a favorite word of mine in the past probably five years. What is your understanding of the word contentment and how that works with rest?

CZ: So, contentment is an interesting word, especially connective to what I would call a Christian subculture that I've been a part of for a long time, because that word has certain connotations over time for different from people. So, if I have this idea of contentment that is connective to a lifestyle that is filled with going, making, doing, building as my point of identity and meaning and purpose to God, then contentment will look different relative to that. I would say, what I've come to discover contentment is connective to this word Shalom. I went to Israel a couple of years ago and I was able to just ask all kinds of questions and just dig into these different thoughts and ideas that I'd heard a lot about over years and time, I'd studied about in the Bible and other books and things. But, to be able to talk to people there on the ground was just really beautiful.

CZ: And one of the things that I learned about Shalom is it's really not just a piece or a piece be with you, but it's a universal wholeness and flourishing. I feel like that definition of Shalom is what I would call contentment. It's basically understanding that there is the opportunity for another word, which is delight. It's another word that's underutilized in regular conversation for us in America, but it's a very biblical term to be in a state of delight, which means that there is a satisfaction in your life apart from function that there isn't enoughness, if I will, and I will, I just made that one up, there's an enoughness in life where you have your cup full and there isn't this sense of perpetual longing and perpetual striving. And I think that satisfaction or that Shalom or that delight comes from the connectedness to God that we're talking about.

CZ: In that Matthew 11 verse that I referenced earlier, there's a message version. This guy, Eugene Peterson translated it, and he said in the middle of that verse, Jesus is talking. He says, "Walk with me and work with me. Watch how I do it." And I love that he includes the work part. It's possible to be satisfied and to be restful even inside of our work. And that's really what we're talking about when it comes to contentment. It's not always working to achieve or working to make or working to accomplish. Even in the work there is contentment. Me just doing what I'm doing is possible for there to be fulfillment. And that requires for me to have different lenses around what is enoughness. If enoughness before for me was accomplishments, accolades, acknowledgements of my significance, or contentment was I've worked hard enough to get enough stuff in order to have more stuff, that's contentment.

CZ: But, what if there's a different kind of contentment? Because, to your point, Tim, I feel like contentment has to be available and true for every Christian person. And one of the things that I'm recognizing is the contentment I defined before wasn't available for some of my friends that I met when I went to Africa. It's not even possible to have the contentment that I was going for. When I went to Guatemala and I was talking with friends there, they could literally never have the contentment that I have or I was going for. When I went to Haiti, same thing. So, maybe my view of contentment isn't necessarily contentment.

Chris: Right. This is bringing me back to blessing. He said contentment is this wholeness. So, the process of being made whole. And then, makes me think about the communal nature of all of it again. And it's so interesting how intertwined this is. And I love that you said that about ... If it's not true for everyone everywhere, then it can't be true. So, especially when we're talking about our faith in those ways, I love that. And for me too, that also opens it up to say the people who aren't in ministry who are doing work, we've been talking a lot about we've sacrificed our lives on this altar of ministry. And there're a lot of people who are just going to work or getting through. And being able to find contentment, being able to find rest, being able to find how to live in the soberness and the wholeness of that and just regular life is huge for people.

Tim: Yeah. And even contentment in the midst of crap.

CZ: That's it.

Tim: I mean, that seems to be the trick in ways you're talking about. It's got to work for the people in Africa who have nothing. I mean, what's it look like really to find contentment and rest in those places? And I think that's what you're pointing at. And so, for people that are in the midst of a really hard situation right now, how does this work out?

CZ: One of the most important things that we have as a gift in the scriptures is the picture of lament. And I think it's one of the most underutilized ideas in the American church. We are people who long for and fight tooth and nail for resolve all the time. We always want there to be like, "But, it's okay." Or like, "I get all that's hard, but don't worry because at the end of the day ..." And I think lament, which we see in the Bible over and over again, is not something that always has resolve. It's basically a passionate expression of grief or sorrow in the midst of suffering, and saying directly to God, "God, this is my full self. This is everything I'm feeling right now. I'm holding nothing back. And all I'm saying is, unless you show up to change this, it's not going to change." No happy ending, no walk on the beach toward the sunset, no credits role and happy. Sometimes it's like, "That's the end."

CZ: And we have to be able to know that it's possible to bring that fullness of self before God in the midst of what is hard and trust that unless he does something, then things won't change. Too often we try to fight to resolve problems for other people, or we try to fake resolve in our own lives in order to try to almost summon up this idea. One of the things that I think is so broken in our view of what we should be like in the midst of suffering is a misunderstanding of a verse in the book of James. It says, James chapter one, verse two, "Count it all joy when facing trials of many kinds or various kinds."

CZ: And one of the things that we wrongly do so often is we take that idea, count it, joy, when facing trials, and what we try to do is tell people, "Hey, you need to be happy while you're hurting. And if you're not happy while you're hurting, there's something wrong with your relationship with God. So, you need to go get your relationship with God right, come back. You need to be able to smile through it and mean it when things are really hard." No! That is not true at all.

Chris: Well, the rest of the verse, because the developing or the testing of your faith [crosstalk 00:46:31] develops perseverance, right?

CZ: And it keeps going. It says, "It develops perseverance, [crosstalk 00:46:36]creates steadfastness." And it says that our suffering makes us complete lacking nothing. So, here's why he says, "Count it joy while facing trials." He's not saying be happy while you're hurting. As a matter of fact, you will be sad and you should be sad while you're hurting. But, joyfulness, which is not circumstantial, is something that I can hold to say, "Even in ways that I can't see right now, I don't understand right now. And quite frankly, I don't want anybody to talk to me about it right now. God is working. And I will see on the other side of this, that it has made me a more complete person that I could not be without the suffering." That's why, for example, when somebody would say to me in the midst of my wife recovering from a very physical miscarriage, "Well, God's going use what you're doing right now to help other people who go through this." I just wanted to shove them in the bushes.

Tim: That is so kind. That is a really appropriate way to say that. I have stronger words.

Chris: Shove them into the bushes?

CZ: I just want to shove them in the bushes because, though they are correct, which I came to realize maybe two years later, that is not what I needed to hear right now. So, what we're seeing in James is this idea of reminding the person, maybe right now, not in the circumstance going, "Hey. Just remember, God's working in ways that you can't see." Some of you need to hear that right now, and you're mad at me because I'm saying it. Some of you need to hear it right now because the suffering is coming. And some of you need to hear it to remember, "Oh, yeah. You're right. I did think that was never going to end. I did think God was against me. I did think that there was no way out. And look at this." So, I think that's an important piece too, when it comes to the suffering thing, because the great theologian, Mike Tyson, once said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."

Emmoe: Oh, my gosh!

Chris: I love that. That's so funny.

CZ: And so, I think it's important for us to know we will all be derailed by suffering. And one of the most challenging things to even approach to someone in the midst of suffering is to even allude to the idea that suffering can be good in any way. Now, that's why it's important for us to have a broader perspective to go ... There's a book in the Bible called Lamentations. Whole thing is filled with grief and sorrow.

Tim: We don't believe that was actually supposed to be in the Bible, but that's fine.

Chris: I think it gives you permission, right?

CZ: That's right.

Chris: It's like, "Okay. Hey, it's okay." We just did a thing on grief a few weeks ago and it's like, "Hey, it's actually biblical. Sit in it. It's fine." And there's a faith aspect. For me in those moments, it's like, "Okay." But, just like what you said, God has gotten me through these. He can do it again. He's with me now. It's okay to sit through this.

CZ: And it's possible to not believe that right now. That's what I want people to hear too, like Psalm 13, "How long, oh Lord, will you hide your face from me forever? How long will my enemy triumph over me? Consider and answer me less thy sleep the sleep of death." I mean, he's not real hopeful right now. And then, even at the end of that Psalm, he says, "I'll continue to remember you and I'll sing your praises because you dealt bountifully with me." Now, if I read that real quick, it's like, "Oh, see man, here it is. He's real sad in the beginning. And at the end, it's a happy ending because he's singing anyway."

Chris: Great CCM song. It's great.

CZ: No. Be not confused. What he's saying is, "I'm only singing because, in the past, you did do some good stuff. I'll give you that one. I just don't believe you're going to do it again." End of the song. There we go. And we need to, as people of faith or people who aren't on the journey of faith are going, "You don't even feel for real. This whole Christian thing feels like it insulates you from all of the difficulties and pain." That's why I think everyone needs to hear it is possible, even as a follower of Jesus, to be in a place of suffering such that right now, I'm not really sure who God is, what he's like and what he can or will do about my situation.

Chris: It's not just possible, it's biblical.

CZ: Of course.

Chris: It's in there a lot, and we've overlooked it for the Jesus bumper stickers.

CZ: We just want resolve baby.

Chris: I love it.

CZ: We want resolve.

Chris: So, finding rest is like being okay with being in those moments in some ways too.

CZ: That's right. I think one of the biggest gifts that I got in the midst of the deepest and darkest season when I was asking so many questions is somebody looked me in the eyes and said, "Hey, it's okay to not be okay." And I had probably said that to somebody before, but it was just like this click in my brain snapped into place because I was like, "Can I believe that's true? Because I feel like everything in my life really needs to be situated and centered on God is good and he's working and I'm doing good stuff for him. And if I'm not in that place, then I can't be of any worth and value to God." So, when they said that to me, it was really helpful. But, the thing that I follow that up with is I'm glad somebody said that to me, but I also wish somebody would've said to me, "Hey, it's okay to not be okay. And whether you believe it or not right now, there's a living hope in Jesus. And it's okay if you don't believe it right now, but I just need you to know it."

CZ: And I think that's the thing that we provide as a gift, as people who follow the way of Jesus, not to be flippant with other people suffering, not to act like you should be happy while you're hurting, but just go, "Hey, I want you to know, what you're feeling right now, it's okay for you to feel that. Bring your full self to that, express that feeling to God. But also know, if ever you want to chop it up, if you ever want to talk about it, there's a hope in Jesus. I just want to throw that out there too. And you may want to just swipe that away, but I need you to know that I'm believing that with you, for you. And that's the piece where I think we can live in the tension together inside of that."

Chris: A part of it makes me think if we're living out of rest and we're representing Jesus in a way through our lives and we're showing them the hope of Jesus by just being with them and meeting them in those moments. And sometimes that's the best thing that we can do.

CZ: I think the way you just said that word is really important, representing. If we say representing real quick, it's like, "That's team Jesus, whatever." But, if we really focus in on what that word means, that really affects who we, as follower of Jesus, should be to the world, a representation of the way of Jesus, which doesn't make it a flippant word that we just throw out there. But, it's an almost sobering idea to go, "Is who I am and what I embody presenting to others a picture of Jesus?" And so often, for me, the answer is no. But then, the question becomes, "Well, what does it look like for me to understand the identifying barriers that might be keeping me from the intimacy that I need to live from that place of connectedness to him? Wear my manufacturing masks and putting on different types of costumes as I present myself to the world that's keeping that barrier." And it helps to bring that rest because now I'm not striving and straining, even in my presentation as a Christian person."

Tim: In a sense, if the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is inside of us, I mean, that's what makes us re presenters. It's like, "I'm not just representing, it's who I am. I actually have Jesus in and through." That's just such a wild thought.

CZ: It is wild. It's wild baby.

Tim: We'll jump on that next time.

Chris: Well, and I feel like to represent him well, then we have to be living from a place of rest. Did we just sum up our whole podcast series today?

CZ: That's it, man.

Chris: Just one talk.

CZ: You nailed it.

Chris: I think we did.

Tim: CZ, thank you so much.

CZ: Man, it is so cool to be with you guys. I dig it. It's so fun.

Tim: Yeah. How do people find your books and all of that stuff? I know that always feels so sleazy and stupid, but you've got stuff that would be really helpful for people. And so, how could people be encouraged by the things that you're learning and walking through?

CZ: Yeah. So, book wise, the easiest way honestly, is Amazon from a cost standpoint. They usually sell it for pretty inexpensive on there. You can get it at local bookstores. I love to support local bookstores, so you can order it through them as well. One book is called Soul Rest.

Tim: Thrift stores. Are there any thrift stores?

CZ: There's probably a 99 cent.

Chris: We're thinking secondhand.

CZ: At a secondhand store somewhere. So, you can go there first.

Emmoe: Wow!

Tim: Sorry. Book title. Go.

CZ: But, any of the places where you buy books, you can find books there. One's called Soul Rest The Devotional, like you said, it's called Finding Soul Rest. There's an audible version of it. I know some people like to listen to books.

Chris: Is it your voice?

CZ: It is my voice. It was one of the hardest creative things I've ever had to do in my life, because it's just a lot of talking for a long time, but it's cool. And then, I have a website called findrest.org. And really what I'm hoping to do with the rest of my life is to come alongside people in all different vocational and life spaces who are living in the tension of trying to understand what it looks like to live from rest. So, there's going to be some different resources there that I hope to offer for free and things like that. And then, also just to try to make myself available in conversation, coming and talking to staff teams and businesses, and also churches and stuff, just to be able to hopefully get these ideas permeating through our conversation. And then, the last free thing that's really easy is the YouVersion app on a lot of smartphones. There are these reading plans and I have one called Soul Rest on there. And it's a seven day reading plan that gives you the ideas really quickly there.

Tim: I love that.

Chris: I've probably read it.

Tim: Yeah. I didn't like it. I thought it was terrible, but I felt like ...

CZ: That's fair.

Tim: No. CZ, it's so good, man. So helpful. Once again, hopefully it was helpful for you too.

Chris: I've made some notes for my wife. This is going to be great.

CZ: It's a lot of deferring. I love it.

Tim: Yeah.

Emmoe: It hit me right in the heart, CZ.

CZ: Come on. All right. There we go.

Chris: She's our only voice of reason

CZ: And honesty.

Tim: So good. Okay. So, we're going to hit you with some questions and this is speed round, so please just go to the first thing that pops in your mind, okay?

CZ: Okay. I'm ready.

Tim: The 80s.

CZ: Wait. Hold on. I couldn't hear it. Say it again.

Tim: That is the best trick we've heard.

CZ: No. I promise. I'm on Zoom. All I heard was "Geez." So, I don't know if that's what you said.

Tim: That's what I said. I said, "Geez." No. I said 80s.

CZ: 80s? Music.

Tim: Is there anything specific?

CZ: Well, I didn't know how quick I was supposed to go, so you've got to give me some more rules.

Tim: What's your favorite 80s music. What's the first thing that comes in your mind 80s music?

CZ: Cheesy.

Tim: Oh, my gosh!

Emmoe: So, no favorite. Okay. Got it.

Tim: Okay. When I dance, I look like ...

CZ: A robot.

Tim: Really? Can you do the robot?

CZ: Yeah, man. Come on.

Tim: What's up, girl?

CZ: I've got rhythm, but I can't dance. It's a weird combo.

Tim: Do you ever think about taking classes?

CZ: Never. My wife would like me to, and I like to hang out with her. So therefore, if we deduce the idea, yes, I would take classes.

Tim: Well, once again, we've got her on this as well.

CZ: Here she comes. Welcome. All right.

Tim: Yeah. She's really excited. That was the thing she said. Would you get him to do some dance stuff? So, everything we're asking about dancing. Give me your three favorite movies.

CZ: Tombstone.

Tim: Strong.

CZ: This is going to be a funny one. You've Got Mail is one of my favorite movies. [crosstalk 01:00:02].

Emmoe: That's a great one.

CZ: And then, Dumb and Dumber is just ever present.

Chris: The breadth. Everybody's got breadth. I like it.

CZ: Yes.

Tim: Yeah. That says a lot about you.

CZ: Do you see the diversity there? I just want you to understand.

Chris: Yeah. I like it. I'm into

Tim: Do you know any jokes?

CZ: No. I'm not great at jokes. My son is a great joke teller, so let me think of one of his. Why did the bird go to the doctor?

Tim: To get to the other side. I don't know.

CZ: Because he needed some treatment.

Tim: That's good.

CZ: My my son seven.

Tim: If he was feeling better I'd ask you to bring him in. That's a strong dip right there.

Emmoe: That's too good.

Chris: All of my kids jokes end with poop. They just think it's funny. I'm like, "Guys, nope. Read the room."

Tim: That's funny.

Emmoe: It always hits though.

Chris: It does for them.

Emmoe: I'm laughing over here.

Tim: Read the room?

Chris: Well, I tell my kids to read the room all the time. I'm like, "Guys, know your audience."

Tim: I know you're four.

Emmoe: Oh my goodness!

CZ: I love it.

Tim: Okay. Pet peeves.

CZ: Let's say biting nails.

Chris: Do you clip yours?

CZ: Clip mine.

Chris: Wow!

CZ: Yeah. I used to bite my nails. So, it's more of a pet peeve for myself. I don't like that I did that for a long time. And so, I had to really ...

Tim: Do you have two chew things? If you hear people chew, does that drive you crazy?

CZ: No. It's not even really an assessment of others as much as it's just like I get peeved on my own for multiple reasons. One, just the whole thing is just not awesome. But then two, especially in the age of COVID, I think about now, where germs reside way more than I did 18 months ago. And one place that I feel like you would catch a lot of stuff would be underneath your fingernails. And so, biting your fingernails is probably like a main lining of COVID potential.

Chris: Or it's setting you up. Gives you some antibodies.

CZ: Some Dwight Schrute. That's Dwight Schrute logic right there.

Tim: Totally. Okay. Bucket list.

CZ: Bucket list? Travel the world with the family. Hang out with Tim Timmons for coffee.

Tim: Obviously done.

CZ: I mean, I'd like to go to the Grand Canyon. I know it's like really big down to smaller, but I think the Grand Canyon would be just a cool experience.

Tim: I think you could do a dance class at the bottom of the Grand Canyon with your wife.

CZ: Well, no. How about this? We'll go to the Grand Canyon and you and I have coffee there at the ...

Tim: This is feeling so right.

CZ: And then, right after that, we'll load up the family and then start our journey from there for the rest of the world.

Tim: Lord, I lift your name on high.

CZ: Come on.

Tim: Okay. Hobby. Do you have a hobby?

CZ: Running.

Chris: It's not a hobby.

CZ: Slash reading.

Chris: Torture.

Tim: Okay. My last one is, what's your favorite word that you've ever made up?

CZ: What was the one I made up earlier today?

Tim: Enoughness.

CZ: Enoughness. That was a pretty strong one.

Chris: That's better than blout.

CZ: Blout was a good contender.

Emmoe: So good.

Tim: Well, if you just blout something out, do you know what? Maybe that's a real word, you guys.

Chris: Just blout it out.

Tim: Maybe you're just giving me crap for something that's legit.

CZ: I'm for it.

Emmoe: No.

Tim: CZ, thank you so much.

CZ: So much fun.

Tim: You're awesome, dude.

CZ: Let me do it again. Bring me back.

Tim: Super helpful. We would love it.

Chris: Come on baby.

Emmoe: Yeah.

Tim: We'd love it. That's super helpful for humans and for us, so thank you.

CZ: All right.

Tim: Really great.

CZ: Cheers.

Tim: Okay. So, if you made it this far, you are a true friend of God and a true friend of ours. That's probably not theologically correct, but it feels really right. Do you know what I mean? So, thank you for sticking with us. So, if you did get this far and you want to let us know that you got this far, you can go to our Instagram page, 10,000 minutes X, or a Facebook page or to mine or to Chris's. And just tell us if you are a dog fan or a cat fan. That would be great. Just say "Dog", "Cat", whatever you are. That would be great. And please, would you like this actual episode or subscribe to it or comment on it or share it? That would be so helpful for us. Thanks, you guys. Till next week, rest well.

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