020: Join Jesus in the Canyons

Author and Singer Songwriter Ellie Holcomb joins The Experiment Podcast to talk about pet snakes, how memorizing scripture creates new paths for us and the time she found God at the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

This week’s Practice:

Join Jesus in the Canyons

+ 020 Join Jesus in the Canyons - Ellie Holcomb Transcript

Ellie: Do you own a snake?

Chris: No. I'm afraid of snakes, and so I just into these groups on Facebook ... This is what I do with my time now.

Ellie: The world we live in.

Chris: They're snake identifying groups.

Tim: It's like picture this, but for snakes.

Chris: No, I'll show you.

Tim: He told me this, this morning on our walk.

Ellie: He's made really good friendships in this.

Chris: No, it started in Oklahoma because that's where I'm from, and then I joined a Tennessee one. Now I'm on one for the whole country.

Tim: He's literally looking around as we're on our walk today.

Emmoe: You're going to get-

Tim: I was like, "Why are you so [inaudible 00:00:31]

Emmoe: 50 notifications of people who have seen snakes today.

Ellie: Yes, Chris. This is so my son, but all he wanted for his birthday was a snake. I was just like, "I'm not getting you a snake for your birthday, buddy." He was like, "Well, Mom, it's okay because I'm just going to wish it for Christmas." Eyebrows raised, "There's nothing you can do to stop me. You know what?" I was like, "I don't want you to wish that for Christmas. Please don't wish that for Christmas." He does not know that he's manipulating me. I'm like, this is the one way.

Ellie: My whole goal has been to get him to like something more than snakes. He goes-

Chris: I did it.

Ellie: "Mom, you can't stop me from wishing this because I will wish it at school." He's like, "Also, my bed faces north, and my wish will go right to the North Pole."

Tim: Oh, my gosh. That was his logic.

Chris: I love that.

Tim: That's strong logic.

Emmoe: That's so smart.

Ellie: I'm like, "We're going to rearrange your room and it will be pointing west."

Chris: My five year old starts bribing me. He's like, "I'll give you all of my money." My wife's like, "You don't have any money." He was like, "I do have money. Mom has it. I'll give it all to you." For anything that he wants. I'm like, "Buddy, you already promised me all your money yesterday for what you needed." But he's just got-

Emmoe: Oh, man.

Chris: Unlimited bank rolls, and he's bribing people for whatever he wants.

Tim: Let me just throw this out there. I don't want to be that guy. I want to hook both of you up. We're talking about re-homing the snake.

Ellie: Oh, no.

Tim: It's not even ... You know what? Here's the deal. It's not even a year old and it's basically been trained and loved by people. Ellie, I will give you such a good deal.

Ellie: Literally, he already ... Here's why he ... We ... Here's his reason.

Chris: This is so great.

Ellie: He's like, "I'll wish it next year, Mom, or maybe the next." I'm like, "Rivers might kill your snake. He's two and he is-"

Tim: Something.

Chris: I feel like kids with the names Huck and Rivers need a snake. [crosstalk 00:02:27]

Ellie: It's our fault for naming them that.

Tim: Yeah, blame the parents.

Ellie: Rivers is obsessed. We had ... But I will say, this is what we gave him for his birthday. There is a girl here in Nashville. Her name is Honey Simmons, and she goes by ReptiGurl. She has a bus that is full of reptiles. You go on the school bus. It's like a party bus. There's lights, there is music. You get to hold the snakes. She tells you all about them.

Chris: That was the birthday?

Ellie: That was his birthday party.

Tim: Oh, my gosh.

Chris: [inaudible 00:02:58]

Ellie: I know about the ball python, because we ...

Tim: Did you go on the bus with him?

Ellie: They used to wear them in ancient Egypt. It's like earrings and jewelry.

Emmoe: Whoa.

Ellie: They do-

Tim: They ball up. That's why it's named Royal. Really, Noah called it Royal. We don't know if it's a girl or a boy.

Ellie: Wait. The actual ... Your snake's name is Royal.

Tim: Yeah. Your snake is named Royal.

Ellie: Yeah.

Tim: Actually, we'd like to leave everyone with a parting gift. Next guest is going to get my puppy, Pippie, because we just love her so much we want someone else to enjoy her. [crosstalk 00:03:32]

Tim: Drew, if you're listening, you're getting a snake.

Ellie: Oh, Lord Jesus. Not yet. He doesn't want to hurt the snake. We did already lose our first pet that we ever had, which was so sad.

Tim: Oh, no.

Ellie: But it was some sea monkeys and they got knocked over two days into their existence-

Tim: What actually are sea monkeys?

Ellie: And these are not built for owning. My kids.

Tim: That's a pretty strange thing to have. It's not like you got a dog. You got sea monkeys.

Ellie: He was so upset. I'm like, "We're not getting you a snake, buddy, for your birthday, but check this gift out." He was like, "Sea monkeys?" Thrilled. He literally, accidentally ... He was devastated. He accidentally knocked it over, because he was showing a friend, lifting the top off, and accidentally knocked it over. I was just like, "I ..." There's definitely sea monkeys in our carpet still.

Tim: Yeah. How much is a sea monkey?

Ellie: They're like $14.99 on Amazon. It's a packet. They freeze them in crystals. It's kind of like pets of the future. They're kind of amazing.

Chris: I don't know even know what this ... I'm going to have to Google it later.

Tim: Guys, it has been so-

Chris: I really love where this podcast is going.

Emmoe: That's so sad.

Chris: I don't know if we started yet.

Ellie: Practicing [inaudible 00:04:50]

Chris: This is going to be great.

Tim: Gosh. Practice the presence of God with sea monkeys or with a new snake. Everybody, my name is Tim Timmons and you're listening to 10,000 Minute Experiment. To my right is Emmoe Doniz.

Emmoe: Hello.

Tim: Chris Cleveland.

Chris: Yo.

Tim: The hot Chris Cleveland, because we walked over and it was really hot.

Chris: We did. I had to take a shower.

Tim: He literally was looking for snakes. The one thing that he said, "Did you know that some of those poisonous snakes are really little? It's a foot long or something."

Emmoe: Oh, my gosh.

Chris: It's like eight inches. It's pygmy rattlesnakes.

Emmoe: Chris [inaudible 00:05:22]

Chris: Yeah, pygmy rattlesnakes.

Ellie: You know so much.

Emmoe: Oh, my goodness.

Tim: Part of our walk, actually ... I think a third of walk is actually on trail, and so we were really ... I was more mindful today. Making fun of you, but a little bit more mindful of it too.

Ellie: Also, I don't want to see a pygmy rattlesnake.

Tim: There's nothing here.

Ellie: That was so good.

Tim: Our guest today is Ellie Holcomb. Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening to this 10,000 Minute Experiment podcast. It has been so fun to produce and to put together. These conversations have been really good for my soul. If they have been good for your soul, would you consider partnering with us financially? I got to send a bunch of emails out this week to a bunch of you who are supporting us. Jen and Ryan and Maxanne. Sarah, Terry. There are a bunch of you guys. I'm just saying thank you, thank you, thank you for doing this, because we couldn't really be doing this without you. There's some really exciting stuff coming up, so please jump in with that. If you guys want to get free text messages, go to 10000minutes.com, or text 10K to 55678.

Tim: I know every week that I say this is one of the better podcasts, but this is so good. There are literally too many parts where I should just stop us and say, did you get what just happened right there? There are so many sections. I'll do that on a few sections, but just get ready. Get a pen out, get paper out. We're going to learn how to breathe on this. We're going to laugh, probably way too much. But I think this will be good for your soul, so get ready.

Tim: Ellie Holcomb.

Ellie: Hello.

Tim: What do you think about snakes?

Ellie: They're so cool, and I don't want one to ever live in my house.

Tim: It's going to be so great. I'm so excited about this. I've been literally saying, "Jesus," as I'm walking in the presence of Jesus, "Would you bring somebody in our lives that would help re-home this thing?" I feel like-

Chris: Answered prayers.

Tim: Answered prayer.

Emmoe: [inaudible 00:07:15] say less.

Chris: Answered prayer.

Ellie: Oh Lord, have mercy.

Chris: Get excited, Huck.

Ellie: Yeah, Huck. It's your lucky day. Have you ever played the Rattlesnake Festival in Alabama?

Tim: We played it together, you and me.

Ellie: Thank you. All of a sudden I was like, wait a second.

Tim: I forgot about that.

Ellie: I have this memory where we were at this place.

Emmoe: This is wild.

Tim: This is full circle, because I tell that story all the time.

Ellie: Yes. [crosstalk 00:07:38] That was-

Tim: You, me, and Tom went.

Ellie: That's exactly right.

Chris: Were there live rattlesnakes?

Tim: Oh, yeah.

Chris: Christians are so weird, man.

Ellie: [inaudible 00:07:46]

Emmoe: What?

Ellie: It was an-

Chris: Is it in Texas or where was it?

Ellie: Alabama.

Chris: Alabama.

Ellie: A grease pole contest.

Chris: So you could get-

Ellie: Rattlesnake queen.

Chris: Yes.

Ellie: The wildest one was the race. They race rattlesnakes. They have a garbage can of rattlesnakes, an inner circle where they dump the garbage can of rattlesnakes after they've shaken it up. I'm like, surely this is FEMA not okay.

Chris: Yes.

Ellie: Somebody is speaking up on rattlesnakes. But Alabama figured this out. It was ... And then there's a big outer circle, and people pay, like bet on them, and then companies sponsor each space. They're tagged, and then they race whichever snake gets to the outside of the outer circle first.

Emmoe: What? This is really-

Tim: We're training Royal right now.

Emmoe: And there is a pit of rattlesnakes right to the right of the stage. It sounds not real.

Tim: They have you walk up there and hold them.

Ellie: They made me take a picture with one and it was awful.

Tim: Me too.

Chris: No. I wouldn't have done it.

Ellie: It was awful. And then, somebody thought it would be cute to take their ... Somehow a lady had a cane, an older lady had a cane behind us-

Tim: Was her name Moses?

Emmoe: Moses. Yeah.

Ellie: Her name was Moses.

Emmoe: I'm right there with you.

Ellie: Mosessa. Mosetta. Somebody took her cane and decided it would be cute, while this thing, with its fangs out ... I still have the picture. I showed it to my kids. I'm like ... I was so ... I'm very scared in the picture. I'm nervous laughing, but I'm also about to cry. Somebody flicked my leg with the cane and I lost it so much that-

Tim: That's not okay.

Ellie: I knocked my sunglasses off.

Emmoe: The reenactment.

Ellie: I was screaming with an open fanged rattlesnake directly-

Chris: No.

Ellie: By my face. I hit it. I could've died and I didn't. The Lord is good.

Tim: He's in the presence. You're in the presence.

Emmoe: He's always present.

Ellie: This is not a snake holding contest. [crosstalk 00:09:53] This is not how I have been practicing.

Tim: No, this is-

Emmoe: Is this podcast about snakes? Let's just embrace what it is.

Tim: [inaudible 00:10:02] I am so happy.

Chris: I feel responsible for the last half hour and I apologize.

Tim: No.

Emmoe: We're learning a lot.

Tim: We're going to have about-

Emmoe: So happy.

Tim: Five minutes of content, but that's-

Ellie: I'm going to give your number to my son, Huck. I'm going to tell him everything.

Chris: I'll just [inaudible 00:10:17]

Emmoe: That was so good.

Tim: Okay. The whole point of 10,000 Minutes is we are trying to figure out how do we practice the ways of Jesus, whether we're at a rattlesnake conference, convention, festival? Was it a festival?

Ellie: Festival.

Tim: But we're trying to figure out what's it look like to practice the presence of God all week long. This is our third episode on that.

Ellie: Oh, love it.

Tim: We've got it down is what we're trying to say.

Ellie: You know. You're to tell me how to do this.

Tim: Yeah. If you just want to get right in and listen up, that would be great.

Emmoe: We got a pen. Do you need a pen?

Ellie: Have they aired yet? I haven't listened to the other ones yet-

Tim: No, not yet.

Ellie: If you posted them.

Tim: They start this week.

Ellie: I am really excited to listen.

Tim: You should be excited to listen. Actually, it did start. Jason-

Emmoe: Yeah, Jason Gray was the first one.

Chris: We just released it.

Tim: We just released it. Right now it's Tuesday in three weeks from now, so it's perfect. We're doing great.

Ellie: Love it.

Tim: Are there things ... I know you're writing a book right now on Scripture memorization or something like that. Is that right?

Ellie: Yes.

Tim: Is that what I heard?

Ellie: It is written.

Emmoe: It is written.

Ellie: Yeah.

Tim: This is about snake Bible verses?

Ellie: Yes.

Tim: The Lord gave ...

Emmoe: [inaudible 00:11:30]

Ellie: Right. I don't think I have any references to snakes.

Tim: Think about it. We could-

Chris: We could make an amendment.

Emmoe: The sequel. The second one. [crosstalk 00:11:39]

Chris: Just put my name in the liners. It'll be fine.

Tim: Think about it. The whole front could be a snake.

Ellie: The second printing, assuming that there will be one.

Tim: Volume two. Is that something ... Why do that, and is that something that helps you be more mindful of the presence of God all week long? The idea is we are all giving great Christian answers all the time. We're taught almost to give good Christian answers. We live in the presence of God. But what does that even mean? Why does nobody want to follow Jesus? If we were living in the presence of God, and that was our aim, seeking first His kingdom, that was the law of the kingdom is love, and if that were true, grace and love ... All this beautiful stuff, and powerful stuff, if that were true, people would be like, "Man, I can't wait to know more about you and your God." Just nobody wants to be a part of that club right now.

Ellie: Yeah.

Tim: And I get it. We're just trying to figure out what does it look like for us to practice the presence, so that we can be re-presenters of Jesus on earth, instead of some stupid religion that Jesus never even started.

Ellie: That's so beautiful. Yeah.

Tim: That's kind of the aim of this.

Ellie: Yeah, love it. To answer that question, why memorize Scripture, that started over a decade ago. I met a girl at a Young Life camp and really intersected with her story. She's a dear friend still. She was a high school kid, battled depression really, really severely. She had encountered Jesus. Grew up pastor's kid and went to Young Life camp. Perfect girl on the outside. That Christian, sort of like, "I got it together." What nobody really knew is what was happening inside her. She was in despair. She would say ... Cutting to manage pain. Nobody knew that was going on.

Ellie: She ended up encountering Jesus in that, and community in that. She didn't leave Young Life camp like, "I'm cured of depression. It's over. That was it. That was a really hard story, now it's over." It has been her ... It's still ... This is still a thing that she's in the midst of. I think for her, it was knowing that she was never alone in it. But I was with her the next summer, a different Young Life camp. She ended up volunteer where we were. And listening to her across the picnic table at dinner one night, and there were so many lies that she was believing. Lies about who God is, lies about who she is or what she's worth, or whatever. I got mad, in the middle of the conversation. I realized there are so many lies that I believe too, that you have to hustle for your worth. Or to be a follower of Jesus, you have to earn this and prove that you're on God's team or whatever.

Tim: Right.

Ellie: This backwards legalistic stuff that's void of relationship, which is the whole point. I was like, "I am so sick ... The enemy," who is represented as a snake-

Chris: Snake.

Emmoe: Whoa.

Ellie: He's called the father of lies, and when he speaks lies are his native language. He is such a freaking punk. That John 10:10 ... God comes to give us life and life to the full, but the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I was like, I am so sick of the enemy stealing our joy, stealing our hope, stealing peace, meddling with fear, meddling with shame, keeping it on. Saying, "You don't need to do this [inaudible 00:15:13] You should try this." The whole ... I don't know. That whole temptation thing. And then shaming. Heaping shame on us for whatever. I don't even know how all of the spiritual world works, but the way it's represented as you read here. It's awful. I was like, "I am not freaking going down without a fight."

Ellie: Across from her at this picnic table, I was like, "You need to pull out your journal right now." She was like, "Yes, ma'am." I started flipping ... This is the same that had to get re-covered, because it's tattered. I started ... I did what I sometimes do when I'm really desperate for truth. I start flipping through my Bible looking for anything you'd ever underlined before. You're like, it must've been good one time. I was just like, "Write this verse down. This one too. Write this down." We had this whole list of verses, and I was like, "We are going to start memorizing Scripture, because God calls His Word a sword."

Ellie: Also, that's actually in reference to Jesus. But we need to hold ... I think I realized it wasn't enough for me to just acknowledge the lies, like, that's a lie, that's a lie. I needed something stronger to replace it with. I was just listening to a podcast about neurology and the way our brains work. It was just saying ... I love that God says ... I was just like, oh, my gosh. This is in Scripture. God says, "You will be transformed by the renewing of your mind." As we started memorizing Scripture, it started changing us.

Ellie: We're really bad at it. Honestly. I'm like, this is a verse in the Bible. I can't remember the reference, but it's in there. It didn't necessarily change her circumstances. Still depression is present, in some seasons heavier than others, but it has given us solid ground to stand out [inaudible 00:17:03]

Emmoe: I wanted to take a moment to remind you and myself that we are not alone. So many parts of the young girl story sounds like my story. It sounds like Kelsey Grimm's story, who shared with us last week. It might sound like your story. I know what it's like to not have the energy to get out of bed, let alone pick up the Bible, and read truth that feels so distant from current reality. But I'm here to say it's all true about you. If you haven't heard it today yet, remember, you are so loved. You are worthy and you are not alone.

Ellie: I was listening to a conversation that Brene Brown was having with a neurologist, and she was saying that almost like if you're walking ... If you imagine yourself walking in a field of grass, tall grass, and you're on ... There's a mowed path. You take a left turn into that tall grass and walk through it one time, and it beats the grass down. It's like a little path that your brain went to take. The next time-

Tim: Is that like neural pathways-

Ellie: A neural pathway. Yeah. One time. A thought process. And that makes it easier to go down that path the next time, because you're walking down the path and you're like ... It's an easier way. It has been ... It was so crazy listening to the podcast because I was like, "That's what memorizing Scripture does." That's what breathing does, which is one of the things that has been a super power for me.

Ellie: It has been a really ... Probably one of the most transformative things that happened. I think for me too, as I started memorizing Scripture and it has seeped in, I don't know how many verses I've done, but there is a sense that this living Word ... I remember when we brought our second baby home from the hospital. This is so ... Actually, it's like a job. But we just set him down next to the door in his car seat thing and he was asleep, and then we're watching a show with our oldest. She was so excited we were home. She was watching Daniel Tiger and we're [inaudible 00:19:28] All of a sudden she's like, "Where's Huckie? Where's Huck?" I was like, "Oh. Sorry, he's just by the door." She leans over his little car seat and she goes, "So cute. So little. He's alive. He's alive."

Ellie: That is how I feel about the Word of God. With as much as it is confounding to me, with as many questions as I have about it, I don't fully understand everything, but it has become a shelter and a comfort and a light and a bomb, and ultimately, like a song that I've sung into the darkness in my own heart, and then into the darkness and the heaviness around me.

Tim: You talked about breathing.

Ellie: Yeah.

Tim: Go.

Ellie: Started learning about meditation, which growing up in the church [inaudible 00:20:28] ...

Chris: New Age.

Emmoe: Eastern [inaudible 00:20:31]

Ellie: Are you a Buddhist? Man, there's so many beautiful things in those other religions, that I think truth is truth. I'm like, that's a beautiful thing. God made us to breathe, and I'm like, that makes sense to me that that is a thing for people. I was on tour with Amy Grant and Nichole Nordeman.

Chris: Oh, my gosh.

Ellie: Yeah. No big deal, guys. I was like, it's fine. Just my childhood heroes over here. What the hell am I doing? You know that imposter syndrome [crosstalk 00:21:04] We were doing a VIP Q&A-

Chris: A Q&A thing.

Ellie: Yeah. We were ... It's Amy Grant and Nichole Nordeman. There's hundreds of people listening. I am literally in there, and I'm in there. Each of us have a mic and I'm like-

Chris: What am I going to say?

Tim: Yeah.

Ellie: Like, I don't want to ... I just want to hear what they say. I'm just here to listen to them. I am having major imposter syndrome, and also, girlish joy and giddiness-

Tim: Totally.

Ellie: Of just getting to be with these women, who I grew up ... I know them. I grew up in studios. My dad ... It's not like they're like superstar, but I just respect them so much. So much. I will never forget it. Somebody asked Amy ... They said, "How do you balance your life? How do you keep a balance between home and the road?" She goes, "Honestly, I'm just going to be really real with y'all right now. I am struggling being here." And just shared very vulnerably, "I actually want to be at home. I'm so grateful for this opportunity, but I feel like ... I don't know. You want a version of me that maybe I'm not anymore."

Tim: That girl.

Ellie: She said, "Something that I'd love for us to all do that has been transformative in my life is a meditation. There's just so much noise in our culture, in our own head, banging around, rolling and rambling around in our own head." She said, "I'd just like, if y'all are down with it, I'd just like everybody to stand up right now." It is amazing. I will never forget ... I'm sitting there with my mic and the whole room is standing up, and all of a sudden Nichole Nordeman and I glance at each other sideways and we're like, "Okay. I'm standing up." We're like, "Okay, we're going to do this too."

Ellie: Amy said, "Here's the noise that's running around in my head. Just hold her hands down and open like this. Sometimes we can't get the noise to quiet down, but if we can make our body be still, it can help quiet the noise that it's in our mind." She had learned this practice ... I think Gloria Gaither, actually, gave her this ancient practice of some ... I can't remember the name. I actually meant the text Amy before I came here to get the name of it. I'll find it and we can put it in the show notes. I haven't actually read the book and I'd love to read it.

Ellie: But she just said, basically, this monk met with this man who was having a really hard time, lots of burdens, lots of pain. He said, "I want you to name whatever the noise is, whatever the thing is, just one word. It doesn't have to be a lot. Name it and then say, this is the noise that I hear, but this is who I am. Loved. Loved. Loved. I want you to get down on your face and take one breath, and then get back up, and then name whatever else. Name something else. This is the noise that I hear, but this is who I am. Loved. Loved. Loved. And get on your face and take one deep breath and get back up."

Ellie: She said, "This has been a transformative practice for me. Let's just do it right now."

Tim: I love it.

Emmoe: Yes.

Chris: About to get on the ground.

Emmoe: Yeah.

Ellie: I've never meditated before and I'm doing it front of 100 people. Amy said, "Here's the noise in my head. I'm not enough. I'm too old. I'm too tired. My voice won't hold up. This is the noise in my head, but this is who I am. Loved. Loved. Loved." She gets down on her face-

Tim: She does? Yeah.

Ellie: And everybody else does too, and takes a deep breath. Nichole and I are like, "We're going down. [inaudible 00:25:04] on the ground." She gets up and it's awkward laughter a little bit. Some nervous ... People are nervous. She goes, "I know. It's really noisy and it's hard. It's really hard. But I think if we could ... I just would love for ... If anyone's willing to share just one word, the noise that you hear in your head. It's really noisy." People are like, "Unlovable. Overweight. Depressed. Unemployable. Abandoned. Forgotten. Not enough." Silence coming over the room. She goes, "Yeah, I hear that. Yeah, I hear that too." I'm like, "Imposter syndrome."

Ellie: She said, "I hear that. This is the noise in our head. But if you'll say it with me in just a minute, and I dare you to take one deep breath on your face. This is the noise in our head, but this is who we are." The whole room said, "Loved, loved, loved," as you descend to the floor and laid on our face, and took a deep breath. I started sobbing. Sobbing.

Ellie: Everybody got up again, did another round of it. It was one of the most powerful things, because it's like acknowledging maybe the lie or the truth. The hard, harsh truth. But the other harder, deeper, truer reality of being loved and then taking a breath and breathing that in. That was my introduction to breathing.

Ellie: The next VIP night, Q&A thing, I'm like, "We're going to do this again." [crosstalk 00:26:55] I've already planned out my noise, and we never did it again. She is so ...

Chris: She's in the moment.

Ellie: She's in the moment.

Chris: That's her great gift.

Ellie: It is her great gift, and she is such a ... I feel like I lean that way, but I have learned to be in the moment. But I have learned so much from watching her. I'm like, it's not a formula. This is a living God. It's a living Spirit. Always surrounding. We did that, but we did that, Nichole, and Amy, and I before almost every show, and would go around. And then learned this beautiful practice of laying face down and kind of touching one another. Almost like stacking hands and praying for one another. So few words had to be spoken. I started the first time. I was super nervous. I was like, "There's a lot going on, and I feel bad about leaving my kids. That's always a torn thing for me." She was like, "It's okay. You could just say torn. You don't even have to fully explain it. There's an understanding. You don't need all the words. Maybe if we just breathe." Such a gentle invitation to shut up and breathe.

Ellie: And carry it to the One who can carry it. She doesn't even say it like that, but I know from experience that is what it is. Then we would stack hands and pray. She was like, "Let's just pray for one another." Again, first time I'm launching into words, and she was like, "I'm so sorry. I didn't even explain this. It's totally ... Words are great, but I think what really ... I think what prayer really is, is lifting somebody up to the light and just holding them in that presence of light and love." That sounds like whatever kind of [inaudible 00:28:43], but my word-

Tim: So good.

Ellie: It gets us out of our head and our limitations into this expansive reality that is the presence of God. And that is accessible, like hidden underground reservoirs. Wherever we are, it's there. That changed me. That practice of breathing and ...

Ellie: Amy would share she's in it with ... Whatever. I don't want to over share her story, but she was like, "I'll be having a hard time with something and I just go in my closet and do this, and sometimes it takes 50 times. But eventually, what ends up happening is all the noise is silent and the body leads the way for the mind to be transformed." I'm like, that's so interesting because our minds are transformed. I know that and I've experienced that as I've memorized the Word of God, but as I've learned to shut up and not say any words and to simply breathe. It's actually helped me learn to grieve and lament.

Tim: Wow.

Ellie: In a way that I've never been able to before. I don't think I knew how to grieve until about two years ago. It just opened the door to-

Tim: How does that ... Just because it quieted things so you could actually go to those places, where before there's so much noise it blocks us from ...

Ellie: Yeah. There's so much almost self-talk. Self-help, self-talk. I'm like, this is really hard-

Tim: Right. Both ways.

Ellie: But God, and He is ... That's ... We preach the Gospel to ourselves. I'm not saying that's bad.

Tim: Got it.

Ellie: At all. But that is all that I knew. That's all I knew.

Tim: Just like your prayers. At those moments you were just praying things that you've known how to pray. You were just saying things out loud. She's just like, "Just pull those suckers back, and just breathe, and just be."

Ellie: Just be here. I had not had any training in that.

Tim: Right.

Ellie: I had not ... I didn't know to do that. I think for me, I was so scared. Are y'all enneagram people?

Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ellie: Did we talk about there? I think I was so-

Tim: You're going to hell, but that's totally fine.

Ellie: I'm going to hell, but it's fine. It's okay. God overcame [inaudible 00:31:03]

Tim: Yes.

Ellie: Pull me out. It was so beautiful because I'm seven on the enneagram, so I really spend a lot of energy avoiding pain and talking myself ... I'm a very positive person. It's just like, gratitude. And that's a super power. Gratitude is a super power. It just is. God tells us to rejoice and to be grateful. I'm not saying that's bad, but it was using gratitude to build a wall-

Tim: To also shield.

Ellie: To have to actually ever deal with anything. Actually, I've dealt with stuff in counseling and acknowledged it. What I realized, basically, reliving stuff from childhood, pain and wounds, that ... And then adult as well, I had acknowledged it. I talked about it, all the words in counseling, but I had never let myself grieve. I think maybe in my experience ... I don't know if this is true. I haven't done any research on this except for personally, but I think if we don't allow ourselves to grieve, from what happened from me, is it started coming out really sideways, and I started seeing-

Chris: That's right.

Ellie: It with my kids. The way that I was interacting with my kids, I was responding from a place of fear and wounding. I was like, "I know this. I know not to do this. Why is this happening?" [inaudible 00:32:30] myself in ... With ... I actually went to my husband's counselor to ... My husband, Drew, is amazing. Not perfect at all, but he's pretty amazing, and he was going to counseling, and he was so different, and the way that he communicated with me started to be so different, I was like, "I don't know how to be married to you anymore."

Chris: Oh, wow.

Ellie: "I want to be. I love you. But I am ... I feel like a jerk because all of a sudden you have feelings, and I'm like, you're fine. You don't."

Tim: You never did before.

Ellie: I have all the feelings. I went to his counselor, actually, to just kind of like ... "Can you help me understand this language that he has?" They were doing [inaudible 00:33:12] voice of the heart, which is so interesting. That's words. Beautiful things were happening in our relationship because of that. But I actually went for that. Ends up he starts asking me questions, and I mean ... I was pregnant with our third kid and I ... Drew apologized to me afterwards. He was like, "I did not know that we were going to the deepest wounds in your story. I'm so sorry. Plus you're pregnant and have a lot of hormones." [crosstalk 00:33:39] He was like, "That was a lot. Are you okay?"

Tim: Was he in there with you?

Ellie: He was. Yeah. It was so sweet, and I kept mentioning these sad things that happened in my story. I'm like, "It's okay. These sad things have happened. God has been so good. He's redeemed so much."

Tim: Right.

Ellie: And the counselor kept saying, "I'm so sorry [inaudible 00:33:57]" I'm like, "It's okay. It's fine." Finally ... I had done that. I had minimized his empathy three or four times, and he's an eight on the enneagram, this counselor, and he said ... He was like, "I actually feel hurt and angry right now because I have offered you sincere empathetic responses to your pain, and you keep laughing at me. Why are you laughing at something so sad?" I was like [inaudible 00:34:32]

Tim: Right.

Chris: Oh, my gosh.

Ellie: It was like all the gratitude walls, all my defenses, everything, I'm like, "I'm good. I've dealt with this. I'm a healthy, adjusted ... I have done the work in counseling," and I had. I really had, but I had never grieved.

Chris: Wow.

Ellie: I don't even know how to explain it. There is a whole other realm of God as I learned ... That I have experienced ... As I have learned to grieve, and just breathe, sometimes in heaving sobs. I have encountered the empathy and the presence and the tenderness of God in ways that I will never be able to shake, and in ways that make me less afraid of whatever will come, whatever is here. We'll certainly have heartache. We've had it before. We experience it again. It's a broken world. But has been ... I will ... I am forever changed by that.

Ellie: On the record that I just released, Canyon, I think I talk about breathing ... I think it's in five songs. I didn't really realize that until after it was out.

Tim: Yeah, totally. That's so true.

Ellie: It was a thing for me. I was like, "Dang. There's breathing again."

Tim: Everybody always asks, what's the theme for this record? I'm like, "I don't know. There are 50 songs." They all say breathe in them.

Ellie: Yeah.

Tim: [inaudible 00:35:57]

Ellie: But it's so interesting because while I was in pretty intensive counseling, one of my biggest fears happened with ... My biggest fear of doing music is that it will destroy my family.

Chris: Wow.

Ellie: Because I watched that happen as a kid. I watched it ... I just know. I swore I would never marry a musician, swore I would never be a musician, and I just think God has a sense of humor.

Tim: Married a musician. You are a musician.

Ellie: Yeah. And I love it. But I just was not enamored with fame at all. I'm not really ... I'm not famous, and I love that. I'm like, I actually don't want to be. I think there's so much ... Fame feels like a prison in some ways, because there's a loss of freedom. I was zero percent enamored with fame, or the lifestyle. But then 100% enamored with music and a song and the way that it speaks to you. That's been a really interesting ... I'm grateful for that perspective, doing music and with my husband, and now we perform together, and then also apart. I'm really grateful for that perspective.

Tim: You were saying you an experience. Was there an experience around this? This was your greatest fear.

Ellie: Yeah. That is the whole thing for me when I started doing ... Since this invitation from the presence of God, from time with Him, as I was memorizing Scripture, it was changing me. I was in counseling, changing me. Freedom like I'd never known, before I learned to grieve. Where there's truth, there's freedom. I didn't know how to tell the truth. I didn't it was okay to not be okay. I had to learn that first, and then I had to take it 10 years later, a decade later.

Chris: Wow.

Ellie: Had to learn to grieve. It's a process. It's a journey of being human. It's hard, and it's beautiful, painstakingly beautiful, and painstakingly full of sorrow and ache. But I was so scared that us doing music would hurt my kids. We do a lot of intentional work and bring them on the road with us a lot. Anyway, but all of a sudden we found out ... We had a really busy February and came back, and my little girl, without sharing too much of her story, because it's her story to tell too, we just found out that she was having a harder time than we realized. She was not presenting that to us.

Ellie: And then all of a sudden I got back from this real busy tour in February. I had to leave. She had the flu and was acting like a punk before we left for ... We were walking out the door. She's so sweet. She was just acting not herself. I was like, "Babe, what ... We need an attitude adjustment. What is going on?" I go to hug her and I'm like, "You are on fire. You are ..." She had 100 something fever, and we had to go catch a flight. She was so sad that we were leaving. After that moment, I think that she had some worry about us leaving. She was so sad every time that we left, but never ... We didn't see that and our nanny just thought it was kind of normal and would talk her through it. She was so sweet to her, but didn't really let us know the extent. It was a little ... She was like, "I thought y'all knew ... She was doing this with y'all too."

Ellie: I had found out that for a month she'd been really sad and we didn't know it. I immediately went to Daystar and I was like, "I'm pretty sure my daughter needs intensive counseling. My worst fear is coming true." [inaudible 00:39:31] I started talking with Sissy [inaudible 00:39:34]-

Tim: Daystar is a counseling for kids.

Ellie: Incredible.

Tim: We've done that too. So great.

Ellie: It's incredible.

Tim: We actually want to have Sissy on at some point.

Ellie: You 100% ... Here, Sissy is like Mr. Rogers. You think it's a show for children, but it's actually for you. Do you know what I'm saying? Her books are ... Braver, Stronger, Smarter is how to raise worry-free girls, is this amazing book. She was actually in the process ... It wasn't released yet and she was like, "I'm just going to give this to you. This is exactly what you need." She's just on this loop of worry. Totally normal for her age, for the record. One in four girls are experiencing this, is the statistic. It used to be one in eight. It's down to one in four, and the age starts at five or six now.

Ellie: I was just like, "Oh my gosh. Okay." She just talked about the power of breathing. She was like, "You have to ground yourself because your brain is going like this, and so you actually just have to ground yourself." She taught me all these tools. I was like, "When does [inaudible 00:40:40] full-time counseling? We're here." She's like, "I don't think she actually needs to come in. I think it would be amazing for you to learn how to talk with her through all this. I think that might be a really powerful experience for you." The thing that was my biggest fear, as she taught me how to breathe ... You trace your hand. I'm in the studio tracing my hand, like breathe in, up the thumb, down the ... And so you're grounding physically. When we're worried or afraid or angry, chemically, everything, all the blood flow goes to amygdala, which is the fight or flight thing. Have y'all heard that?

Chris: Yep.

Ellie: You actually can't think rational thoughts, so you can't really speak rationally to calm a child down if their heart is racing and they're really worried.

Chris: Good thing I try, every freaking ... I'm like, this time it's going to work.

Ellie: The other day I had a son freaking out about something silly.

Chris: Snakes. Yeah. Not having snakes.

Ellie: Yeah. Not having a snake. I could not get him to calm down and nothing was working. I was trying to get him to breathe, and he was not. He was just like ... He could not stop breathing. I was like, "I know what I'll do. I'll yell in his face and clap." I just felt-

Emmoe: So good.

Ellie: And stop it right now. [crosstalk 00:41:50]

Chris: I just got magic. I'm a magician.

Tim: Oh, my gosh.

Ellie: He's still sobbing and I'm like, "I am now ... This is ... I'm so sorry."

Chris: [inaudible 00:42:05]

Ellie: "Mommy was trying something in an experiment and it didn't work, and I'm so sorry."

Chris: I would blow in their face like a dog.

Ellie: "Do you just need me to hold you?"

Chris: Stop.

Ellie: And he was like, "Yes." I just ... It has been so beautiful leaning in and learning to breathe with her. And the other thing that you do, that she taught us to do, was to separate the worry from yourself. You actually name it. She was like, "You can ..." A lot of people call it the worry monster, but she can name it whatever she wants to. And then you actually ... Little girls, especially love this, but you get to be the boss of the worry. That's not who you are. That's actually this other thing that's being put on you, and you actually get to boss it around.

Ellie: I'm like, "What is worry?" We name that. And then, how are you going to boss it around? A lot of what we use is ... Speak Scripture. This is what's true. Even physically, she'll be like ... I tell her this, this night when she's having a harder night. I'm like, "You can name it whatever you want." She was like, "What's your worry monster's name?" I was like, "Bert." I don't know.

Emmoe: Bert.

Ellie: I was just like, I ... This is my first time. She was still ... Had a harder night, but went to sleep, prayed, finally calmed down. We did that around ... A lot of breathing and then she'll calm down and get upset again. Breathing, grounding, calm down, speak what's true.

Ellie: She just didn't really connect to the idea of whatever worry monster. The next morning she wakes up and she says, "Mom, I got a name for my worry monster." I was like, "What is it?" She was like, "Princess." I was like, "Princess? Okay." She was like, "She's the princess and I'm the queen."

Tim: Oh, my gosh.

Chris: That's funny.

Emmoe: That is so good.

Ellie: I have watched her ... The biggest thing that I feared was this hurting them and wounding them. Actually, what happened as I leaned in and literally breathed with my daughter ... It's true. It's sad. I hate leaving y'all, whenever I have to leave you. It's my least favorite part of this thing.

Tim: For sure.

Ellie: There are all kinds of things that we adjust, schedule-wise. I'm like, "Okay, God, this was too much. We got to rein it in." It's not that those are not conversations that we have, but the biggest fear that I had turned into one of the things that has brought ... We learned together how to fight the worry monster, and now she has all of these tools when she's sad or overwhelmed. She knows how to breathe. She speaks the truth. She can coach me on it. I'm like, "Okay, I'm leaving. What are you going to do?" She'll be like, "Mom, I got this. She got demoted to slave, worry."

Chris: No longer Princess?

Ellie: It has been ... I think for me, some of my biggest fear has been ... I don't know. If you go visit that sad place or that thing that you're afraid of. If you go near to it, you might get stuck there and stay there forever. I guess that was my fear of doing that. But as I've leaned in to some of my deepest fears, to some of my deepest wounds and just breathed there and invited God into that, I think I know that He's more real than I did before that. And more powerful. And bigger than anything. I'm like, "Oh, you're still here. I'm still beloved even though I am losing my cool."

Ellie: I would get done with breathing with her and then I would walk around the corner and be like ...

Chris: Those are your tools.

Ellie: Yeah. It was so beautiful. We learned how to lean in and speak truth and just breathe and acknowledge the truth that we're okay even when we're not okay together. It has been one of ... It's been such a delight and a joy. It's one of the things that has brought me life, is visiting places that feel like they're going to kill me. I'm like, "That sounds pretty much like the paradoxical, backwards, upside down nature of the Gospel." Jason Gray ... I don't know if y'all ended up talking about-

Tim: Yeah.

Ellie: Did y'all talk about breathing with him?

Chris: Mm-mm (negative). [inaudible 00:46:37] I don't think so.

Emmoe: I don't think so.

Ellie: Sweet. I'll just quote him. When I ... That record that I had wrote ... I had written this whole record about grieving and encountering God there. Jesus Prayer ... This kind of ... I don't know. I just allow myself to grieve and the Holy Spirit would bring me to different images. Some of them that I remember ... Some [inaudible 00:46:59] and then given me a picture of where God was in that [inaudible 00:47:03] in that place where I thought that I was alone, and undid all these lies that I believed about who He was. I couldn't need anything because my need might not be met. He was too busy or whatever.

Ellie: So much healing. I had written a whole record about it. I'm working with my dad and Cason Cooley, the producer that I worked with on songs. Then March third of 2020 hits. Tornado tears through Nashville. It went right behind out house. Woke up to the house shaking. All three kids ... Drew was out of town. It was just the scariest night. It was the scariest night of my life. It was so awful. Then a week after that, this beautiful community that happened ... Neighbors loving neighbors.

Tim: Right.

Ellie: The Gospel nature of tragedy, that this isn't the end because of Jesus. The suffering ... It's not the storm. The devastation is not the final word. Sandra McCracken just wrote a book that is ... Send Your Light maybe is what it's called. I don't think it's out yet, but I was reading it, and she says, "In the end, everything will be all right. So if it's not all right, it's not the end." I just ... It was that beautiful ... Shingles being hammered. That sound of a hammer on a roof until 11:00 P.M., and music playing on a roof. As people just helped each other.

Ellie: Then COVID hits a week after that. Racial tension. All the things. We all know. We've all talked about how heavy and hard this past year was. I went to the Grand Canyon in the middle of it when the numbers were lower in August. Highly don't recommend going to Grand Canyon in August. [crosstalk 00:48:46] Like you just want to feel like hell feels like probably. Whatever. So hot. We were down there ... We actually camped on the northern rim, went down into the canyon, and then rafted the Colorado River, camped on the riverbanks, and then rafted out.

Ellie: I am just undone by the magnitude of everything. Our guide, who is I'm pretty sure not a believer, doesn't come from a spiritual ... Was literally preaching the Gospel. And here's why. He's like, "If you look at the canyon walls, they tell this story of disaster and disaster, and landslide, mudslide." And you can see it. He's like, "That right there is a drought. That was an earthquake. That's a volcano. That's lava." Whatever. And then there's this huge divide. I was ... I'm like, "This just looks like all of us. This looks like the human heart." We all know what ... We have loss on loss, trauma on trauma. Just within the last year-

Tim: Compounding.

Ellie: Compounding. Yeah. I'm like, this is ... We know what it is to have our hearts split wide open like a canyon. But there at the deepest part of the canyon, the deepest pit of all the brokenness, the lowest place, there is a river running through. There's water. And then we had the floods in Nashville. Water always moves to the lowest place. It goes ... It's just going to go to the lowest place in your house. As it turns out, so does God. He goes to the lowest place. He runs deeper. It runs ... There's a current of living water that runs deeper than our deepest aches or our pain, and that will carry us if we'll let it, if we're not clinging on to the side of the wall, which is what I'm usually doing. If we'll only let it, it is an ever present current than can carry us back to a place where we know that even in our most broken place, we belong to love, and we belong to each other, to this place where it's like we're all family. And it can bridge divides and gaps and differences of opinions.

Ellie: I left the Grand Canyon and I was like, and pile of 35 songs off-

Tim: Oh, dang it.

Ellie: This is ... We can breathe. We can sing in the valley. If you sing in a canyon, A, a canyon ... I read this National Geographic article. It's an upside down mountain. When you look at a picture of the canyon, it's like, actually the place where ... Your lowest place that you feel forgotten by God, actually, He sees you there, and He can heal you in that place. And your story of how He met you there is actually going to be the most powerful part of your story. I'm like, what?

Ellie: And then when you sing in a canyon, your voice is multiplied. The reason it's multiplied is because it is echoing off of every single broken piece. I'm like, and that's the Gospel. The other thing that happened down was ... I'm like, thanks Arizona River Runners. But the other thing that happened down there is when we went to sleep, A, the river is also 50 degrees. It's 117 degrees in the day, but all you have to do is jump in the river. I'm like, what a beautiful picture. Does culture not feel like hot right now? And then there's this river, this refreshing river.

Ellie: What they told us to do ... They have these little cots they provided for us and a sheet. They were like, "All right, time to go to bed. Get some good sleep. We got a long raft tomorrow" or whatever. "But you're going to want to wrap yourself in your sheet and go jump in the 50 degree water before you go to bed. Otherwise you're going to be too hot." I'm like, "I'm not doing that. That's ridiculous." It's like take your breath away. 50 degrees is cold.

Tim: Yes.

Ellie: I was like, that's cute, but ... He was like, "The other thing, make sure you wake up in the middle of the night at some point. I'm sure you will because it's hot." But he was like, "When the moon sets ..." There's this thing called the rim effect, and so when the moon sets behind the canyon walls, basically, you're going to be in the darkest place that you've ever been, because you're over a mile into the surface of the earth. It will be the darkest place you've ever been, after the moon sets, because it was a full moon. He said, "And you'll be further away from the stars than you've ever been in your life. But because it is so dark, the stars will shine more brightly and they will appear to be closer than they have ever appeared before."

Ellie: And sure enough, I woke up in the middle of pitch black night, and it was ... And that to me, is what I've known with the presence of God. This unmistakable light in the pit of my darkest moments.

Emmoe: Let's take a moment to check in. What aches today? Are you grieving something? Are you feeling afraid or overwhelmed or maybe the opposite, completely numb? God runs deeper than our deepest ache or sorrow, so let this truth bring peace to you, that God is also found at the bottom of our darkest days.

Ellie: Nightbird ... I don't know if y'all know her. She's on America's Got Talent. She has a cancer diagnosis. Actually, your story ... You got to know Nightbird. Y'all need to be friends. A lot of mutual friends. I don't know her personally, but she has a four percent chance of living. She's had cancer four times or whatever. She's got this beautiful voice. She wrote ... The other day she said that she was so sick from whatever. She said, "I've heard it said that a lot of people can't find God. They can't see God. If you can't see God, look lower. He's on the bathroom floor."

Ellie: That is what I know of Him. Y'all, this week we had our ... Sorry. I told myself I wasn't going to talk about this, but I am attesting currently that this is true. Our pastor, who just turned 50, was going on his sabbatical, was driving his daughter to Texas and got in an accident and both passed away. It feels like a nightmare. He is a prophetic voice. He is ... Father Thomas was this man who helped a lot of spiritually homeless people feel like they could have a home and a seat at the table. He was very human and ragged, and I think somebody said it was his ragged edges that drew us to him, because he also just handed us Jesus in the midst of the raggedness, and the doubt, and the pain, and the ache. He's who you would want to hear from when something like this happens. It just feels so painful. And his daughter was 22. It just feels awful.

Ellie: Got that news, Drew's out of town, I'm solo parenting with three kids, and I am just devastated. And this whole ... My friend ... Two things happened. Presence of God in the presence of our people. Drew sent a text out to ... We live blocks away from two of our dearest ... We do life with these families, raising kids together. He was like, "Family, this happened and we're devastated. We're wrecked." And sent that out and they're all just immediate texting back. I mean, no less than four minutes after that text goes out, knock at my door, trying to get dinner on the table for [inaudible 00:56:54] I'm sobbing in the pantry. I turned a show on for the kids because I just ... They don't even know yet. Drew is out of town so he'll get back today and we'll just share with them.

Ellie: But then such a loss. We haven't even been in church. With COVID and everything, we haven't even gotten to be with him in person. It's like, we'll see him on the other ... It's a great article in The Rabbit Room. Pete Peterson wrote, "Not farewell, but fare forward, and I'll see you again when the renewal of all things happens." There is this hope, but there is still this ache.

Ellie: And quiet knock at the door. I open it and Annie, she's standing right there, and just [inaudible 00:57:32] wrapped me in her arms and I just was like ... She didn't say anything. Didn't say anything, just held me as I sobbed, and then sat with me as my kids were crazy eating dinner. It was just there. And that night, I think I was like ... I'm always [inaudible 00:57:56] it's not the end of the story. I, after this past year, breathing, I'm like, "I'm just going to lean into this." Everybody was like, "Do you need me to come over? [inaudible 00:58:03]" I was like ... Annie was there, and I just felt this invitation from God to grieve and lament. I sobbed in the shower for three hours.

Ellie: I was crying, and I felt like He was like, "It's okay." That's what I felt like I heard the Lord say. After I was crying in the shower, I felt like He was like, "Just wash your hair." I had a music video shoot the next day, and I was like, "I'm just going to go in there." I had been crying for so long. I was trying to ... Anyway, my hair was done from something else that I had done. Work is still happening. I was supposed to still show up and do a freaking music video shoot in the wake of this. What the ...

Ellie: I just felt like He was like, "Just wash your hair. It's okay." It was so sweet. Take care of yourself. It's okay. I'm here. And I am so sad. I don't understand. I feel like we need Father Thomas's voice here right now. I don't have an answer to why he's not here anymore, but I do have already ... God is here on the bathroom floor. Literally on the bathroom floor [inaudible 00:59:13] I'm like, "Oh yeah, you're here. You're here too and that is the most beautiful story that I know," that love beats death and then comes as a companion with us when we're in the middle of the ache and the sting of death here. I'm grateful.

Ellie: And then, dancing with death. I met my [inaudible 00:59:41] dear friend. I feel like she's ... I call her my niece. She's not niece, but she comes to visit me for the first time the day after this happens. I'm meeting her. Hadn't seen her because of COVID, hadn't met her because of COVID. She lives in Texas. Seeing little Lou's face for the first time, and then this morning at 1:30, my little niece, Clancy Jean is born, and I'm like, here is this crazy cycle of joy and new life and hope.

Emmoe: Awesome.

Tim: Thank you, Ellie.

Ellie: It's such a joy. Thanks for having me, y'all.

Tim: We've got 10,000 thoughts right now for you.

Ellie: Oh, yeah. Let's do it.

Tim: It's time.

Ellie: I'm ready. My feet are lifted just in case a snake is below me, and I'm ready.

Tim: Snakes isn't even on my list. If you guys have other thoughts, check them out. This is quick draw, if you will. Rapid venom is what I'm going to say. Think about La Croix as a quick rapid fire. You just let me know your first thoughts.

Ellie: Someone whispering from the other room [inaudible 01:00:56]

Tim: You say [inaudible 01:01:01]? Is that what you say?

Ellie: That's what we're drinking right now. [crosstalk 01:01:03]

Tim: I know. I just didn't ... There's been a debate on how you say that.

Chris: I wouldn't know how to register that word, though. I'd be like, is that a strawberry?

Emmoe: It's like someone's in the other room going, "What color is it?"

Tim: Yeah. What's your favorite?

Ellie: Hibiscus.

Tim: Hibiscus La Croix.

Chris: I haven't even tried that.

Ellie: It's delicious. And then my other answer would be only ever drink half of it. I never finish it.

Chris: You don't?

Tim: Wow.

Ellie: I don't know why, but I love it. But I only ever drink half of it, and it's not that flavorful.

Tim: It's like my kids.

Ellie: I know.

Tim: I get so mad. I'm like, "No."

Emmoe: Bringing something up right now.

Tim: Such an investment.

Ellie: Pouring money down the train. I know.

Chris: You just lost 50 cents off of her [inaudible 01:01:48]

Tim: So pissed right now.

Ellie: I'm so sorry. I'll try to finish this one.

Tim: Just for me. Christmas.

Ellie: What's your favorite color? Buddy the elf is my favorite movie.

Tim: Dang it. That's wrong-

Ellie: Christmas elf.

Tim: Is that your favorite movie? Give me three top movies.

Ellie: I would say ... Yeah, just Little Women, Elf.

Tim: Which version of Little Women? Obvi.

Ellie: Love both, but forever Winona Ryder, the '90s-

Tim: We dated for a while in that time. Go on.

Ellie: Little Women and Elf and Good Will Hunting.

Tim: Gosh, people seem to have ...

Chris: It's a breadth. It's a range.

Tim: Yeah. Those are great.

Ellie: Runs the gamut.

Tim: Yeah, you got a C minus on that. But I feel like everybody else has done a really great job. Favorite food. Favorite cuisine. Right now. You're going ... We're going to lunch or dinner.

Ellie: Yeah. It's my mom's spaghetti.

Chris: Wow.

Ellie: It's so good. It's when I'm sick. Which is so ... It's such a weird thing to want when you're sick. Everybody's like chicken-

Chris: That is a weird thing.

Ellie: Noodle soup. I'm like, "Can you just get me some spaghetti?" [crosstalk 01:02:56]

Emmoe: Love it.

Tim: Okay.

Ellie: It's so good.

Tim: Do you need to put out ... Have you put out any kind of recipe for that?

Ellie: No. I should share that. I would be happy to.

Tim: You should.

Ellie: Mom could do that.

Tim: Sharing is caring.

Ellie: Sharing is caring.

Tim: The Bannister ...

Ellie: It's delicious. The Bannister family recipe. It's what her mom made. It's been ... But it is comfort, home. That or white chicken chili. Her other white chicken chili [inaudible 01:03:21]-

Chris: White chicken chili.

Ellie: I can't with this heat and the soup. It doesn't sound good.

Tim: I get it. I so get it. Last thing that made you laugh besides snakes.

Ellie: Yeah, I know. I was like snakes. My kid, Rivers, is a trip. He is so wonderful, and he's going to school for the first time. Like, little mom's day out. They wrote on his sheet that he found ... He was in the little toy kitchen he found a peach, and he was looking at the peach and he was like, "It's a butt." And then he would turn it to the other side and show it to his friend, and he goes, "It's not a butt." And then he would turn it around and go, "It's a butt."

Emmoe: That's too good.

Tim: That's just good parenting.

Ellie: I know. He's like, "It's a butt. It's not a butt."

Tim: [inaudible 00:01:04:10]

Ellie: I just thought Amazon. Crocodile Dundee. I'm so sorry. [crosstalk 01:04:18]

Tim: Anything you want. That wasn't ... That's just that ambiguous. You thought of Crocodile Dundee. Thank you. That's perfect. Okay. Bad habit.

Ellie: Not sleeping.

Tim: What do you do?

Ellie: Everything.

Tim: What are you doing?

Ellie: Dance? Organize drawers.

Tim: You're dancing?

Ellie: Writing. Reading poetry. Books.

Tim: What do you mean you dance?

Ellie: I love to dance, and by myself.

Emmoe: Yes.

Ellie: I love dancing with other people, but I will ... The Tom Cruise sing, where he's cleaning up. That's how I work out, is dance really, really hard.

Tim: We make fun of her most episodes, because she dances. Not in front of other people.

Emmoe: No. By myself.

Ellie: I love it.

Emmoe: I knew I liked you.

Ellie: I'm likable.

Emmoe: I think I could tell.

Chris: You did it.

Emmoe: There's something ... I read something about movement helping you release trauma in your body.

Ellie: What?

Emmoe: During the pandemic, and then I was like, "Yeah, sure, I'll dance for 20 minutes." I dance like an hour a day.

Ellie: Yeah.

Emmoe: And there's something about it that makes me feel like my true self afterwards.

Ellie: That is literally ... I think there's an ... I don't know. It's like you're a kid.

Emmoe: Yes.

Ellie: I will dance. Drew is always like, "It's not a Tae Bo." At a wedding, it's like, "Could you be coy?"

Emmoe: We're switching into our Nikes. I got my backpack on. I'm sweating.

Ellie: I'm not a cute dancer. [crosstalk 01:05:44] I do not have chill.

Tim: It's full body.

Emmoe: It's so real.

Ellie: My sister and I, when we get on the dance floor, it is strong.

Tim: It's not Tae Bo.

Ellie: She's definitely put tambourines on her shoes. Why would I sleep when I can [crosstalk 01:06:02] by myself?

Tim: Oh, my gosh.

Ellie: And clean up the kitchen.

Emmoe: So real.

Ellie: Yeah.

Tim: Current obsession.

Ellie: Poetry. That's been a really good thing for me. I really like poems as it turns out. You would think I would know that. I was an English major.

Tim: Yeah.

Chris: Write songs for a living. Turns out I like poetry.

Ellie: If I am having a hard time or just stressed, there are poetry books all over my home. It's so beautiful. I just discovered a new poet that I just discovered. Old, old books. I was at a meeting, a business meeting at these people's house and they had these ... I went to the restroom. Sorry. This may be TMI. But I went to the restroom and they had-

Emmoe: Crying.

Ellie: These little poetry books on the back of the toilet, obviously.

Tim: Clean. [inaudible 01:06:55]

Ellie: Flipping through, and I come out of the bathroom crying, holding this book, and I was like, "Thank you so much. I did wash my hands before ... Not before. Actually [crosstalk 01:07:08]

Tim: I don't know if we'll ever know who that poet was, but if you're ever at somebody's house and they have a poetry book in a bathroom, maybe that was her. Thanks, you guys, for listening. Please go check out 10000minutes.com, and go check out Ellie's new record. It is so good. See you soon.