022: Practice the Present

Musician/Speaker/Author Mike Donehey (Tenth Avenue North) joins us this week to share his best “Chunk” impression, the importance of embracing your current circumstance and how practicing the present is practicing the presence of God.

This week’s Practice:

Practice The Present

+ 022 Practice The Present - Mike Donehey Transcript

Mike: But I didn't.

Chris: Did you put your mouth on the udder?

Mike: I didn't. They put it in a cup for me, but I definitely didn't claim it when I came back in.

Chris: Have you been in contact with any livestock? They ask you all those questions.

Mike: Define contact.

Tim: I'm so happy that the opening line of the podcast is going to be talking about udders.

Mike: I was in contact with the essence of an udder, which isn't the same thing as being in direct contact.

Tim: Yeah. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.

Mike: How direct is the contact with the livestock?

Tim: Yep. Okay. So, once again, this is a very funny episode. But just as funny as it is, kind of like the other ones, it goes just as deep. And there's some extremely profound things on here. So I'm excited for you guys to learn with us as we hung out with my friend and our friend, Mike Donehey. Mike is an incredible songwriter, was a part of the band Tenth Avenue North. He's an author. He's a speaker. He actually brings people along on a really deep journey. So you're going to love this episode.

Tim: For those of you who are new to our community. Thank you for jumping in and checking it out. I think you're going to dig it, go back and listen to some of the other episodes. And would you rate this and like it in comment on it. You guys, it's actually really helpful for us if you go back there and rate it and make some comments. It really puts us in a better light as far as promoting this show.

Tim: And then would you share this show with people that you think that it might help. And we are supported purely by you guys. So please, would you go to 10000minutes.com. In the upper right hand corner, it says donate. And would you just consider donating every month or one large tax deductible gift. And then if you want to get a free text messages, just encouraging every week on whatever we're practicing, just text 10K to 55678. The number is 55678. And you put 10K. All right. Get ready. This one rocks. Okay. Welcome to the 10000 MINUTES: The Experiment podcast. My name is Timothy Howard Timmons. We've got Emmoe. What would your middle name be?

Emmoe: Plot twist. Emmoe is my middle name.

Chris: [crosstalk 00:01:59]

Emmoe: Got him.

Mike: Plot twist is your middle name?

Emmoe: Yeah. Good one, Mikey. Emmoe is my middle name. Because my first name is even harder to pronounce.

Tim: Can you tell us?

Mike: [inaudible 00:02:15] friends enough?

Emmoe: Yeah. What episode are we on? I mean, we're all in. So Iram... It's my mom's nickname.

Tim: Iram, Mary?

Emmoe: Yeah. It's Mary backwards. Why couldn't I just have Mary? I don't know.

Mike: I love it.

Tim: Iram.

Emmoe: Iram.

Tim: Iram Emmoe Doniz.

Emmoe: Oh gosh. Yes.

Chris: That's the best name?

Emmoe: [inaudible 00:02:36] Doniz. And my dad is Leo and my mom is Mary. It makes no sense.

Tim: I think you're doing great.

Emmoe: Thanks.

Tim: Gosh.

Emmoe: I'm winning.

Tim: Thank you. And Christopher-

Chris: Kyle Cleveland.

Tim: Kyle Cleveland.

Chris: It's the perfect name guys. Don't be too jealous about it, but it just rolls off the tongue.

Mike: Christopher Kyle Cleveland. I mean, if your parents spelled it a certain way, that could have been-

Chris: It's CKC. So don't worry about it.

Tim: I still don't get it, but I think it's funny. [crosstalk 00:03:05] And you're Michael Morgan?

Mike: Donahue. MMD baby.

Chris: MMD

Mike: Like a duck.

Chris: Let's go.

Tim: [inaudible 00:03:14] your parents spelled that a little different, it would've been something different.

Mike: Yep.

Tim: You know what I mean if you think about it.

Mike: Totally.

Tim: Okay. What do you think I meant?

Chris: I'm so excited that Mike's here. So excited. Soak it in for a second.

Mike: How do I smell guys? I was a little worried about my smell.

Tim: Guys, I found out why we had to postpone today a little bit. So I know you guys all had lot to do and we had to move a lot of things, but Mike had to go golfing this morning.

Chris: Okay.

Mike: Hey. But here's the deal... You're going to-

Chris: Many holes did you get in?

Mike: We just walk nine holes. Me and my former drummer in my band. We meet and we do a little par three-

Chris: I love it.

Mike: ... course on Monday mornings. And we walk, and it takes an hour. But it's immovable. I'm going to do that.

Tim: [crosstalk 00:04:00] I love that.

Chris: That's so great.

Mike: Also, I think I could golf if it was just a par three. I didn't realize that was an option, nine par three, because I can't play holes that are longer than three. I don't know any golf terms. And I'm always done after nine. I'm in the cart just having a beverage and just watching other people chase balls around.

Mike: It's basically the in between of mini golf and real golf.

Chris: So how many clubs do you have to take?

Mike: I mean, it depends. You could do this-

Chris: You take the whole bag?

Mike: I do, but it's just because I like a go workout while I golf.

Chris: I feel you.

Mike: I carry sacks of weights and I wear weight vests.

Chris: You do the belt like when you're doing pull ups?

Mike: I do pull ups in between holes. So this is some manly golf.

Tim: Yeah. That's pretty strong. Now, Mike and I have done a lot of manly things together.

Mike: Super manly.

Tim: What I mean by that is we've worked out an awful lot on the road together.

Mike: We sure did. My favorite move... We were in marina. And do you remember where we were just making up moves where we would hold the railing and kind of shimmy up and down stairwells?

Tim: Yeah. Long ways, your body could fit between the two rails. And so, it was-

Chris: Were you horizontal over? If you fell, you'd fall a whole-

Mike: No. There wasn't any real danger-

Tim: We just literally-

Chris: It actually sounds like what my four year old does when he's trying to climb everything.

Tim: It's totally what we did. Because you know, you're in these arena things and at some point you're like, "You can only run the stairs so many times." And we had some fun outside runs.

Mike: We did.

Tim: But this one, for some reason, we just want to do some upper body something. And so we just started looking at these rails and going, "Hmm, what could we do here?" So it was a good half an hour-

Mike: We definitely got some really funny looks by employees who are walking the corridor, just going, "What are you doing?"because we got our feet up against the wall and we're shuffling along the banister like a little squirrel.

Chris: I've definitely done pull ups on basketball goals or something.

Tim: You can get up there?

Chris: I mean, occasionally.

Tim: That's a big deal.

Mike: I'm impressed.

Tim: Yeah. You're-

Chris: That's really why I said it. I wanted you guys to be impressed just the fact that I could make it up there.

Mike: I'd usually jump up and hang on the top of the backboard.

Chris: Yeah. So, there's a guy in high school. He could get a quarter off the top of the backboard.

Mike: That's incredible.

Tim: He could jump when it was lowered because that's what I-

Chris: Yeah. Like six and a half.

Tim: Yeah. I do that... So, everybody, we've got Mike D here. And we want to know why you call it Mike D.

Chris: We didn't even introduce him yet [inaudible 00:06:47] Avery.

Emmoe: We've just been talking. Oh my goodness.

Tim: Okay. So, everybody, we've got Mike Donehey here.

Mike: Hello?

Tim: And we like to call Mike D.

Mike: Yeah.

Tim: Is that just me that likes to call you Mike D?

Mike: So, I was in high school-

Tim: It feels better. I think partly why I did Mike D is I didn't know exactly how to say your last name.

Mike: That's fair. No one really does.

Tim: Is it he, hey?

Mike: It looks like hey, but is pronounced, he.

Tim: See?

Mike: Donehey.

Tim: Gosh. I hate myself.

Mike: The actual I guess technical Irish pronunciation is Donehey.

Tim: Donehey

Mike: Yeah. Donehey.

Tim: Mine doesn't work.

Mike: Mine's more Americanized. I always know when it's telemarketer. Is Mike Donehey there? I was at a theater thing and my-

Tim: What's the theater thing mean?

Mike: I went to a thing called governor's school where it was a magnet intensive for a month at the University of Richmond going into my senior year. You had to audition for, and I got in. With other performing arts... So, there's kids there for choir and theater and dance and visual art.

Tim: What was yours for?

Mike: I was there for theater arts, for acting.

Tim: Acting is just reacting.

Mike: Is it?

Tim: It's just reacting.

Mike: So I'm there. And my roommate goes... He was Mike Lee and he goes, "You're going to be Mike D because Beastie Boys." And I said-

Emmoe: That's what I thought of when you said it.

Mike: ... "Okay. sure." But up until that point, no one had ever called me Mike D. They just called me Mike. And then I got to college. First week of college, they said, "Hey..." I had four mikes in my little orientation group. So I go, "We need to differentiate you Mikes." And I said, "Well, I went to this theater thing and everyone called me Mike D." They said "Done. Mike D." And it stuck hard where even now, if I see someone who went to college at the same time as me... I think people actually thought my last name was D-E-E.

Tim: Like Lee, but Dee.

Mike: Yeah. Mike D. It was Mike D.

Tim: You know how Bart has that thing about chunk. Texans, they say, if you throw something-

Mike: Chuck.

Tim: ... that you chunk it.

Mike: Or chunk it.

Tim: That's what-

Mike: Just throw a baseball or-

Tim: I'm going to chuck a baseball or I'm going to chunk a baseball.

Chris: Yeah. Chunk it over there.

Tim: What would you say?

Mike: We'll, see, in golf... I'm on golf because I play golf this morning. Chunking would mean you mishit it. You took a big divot before the ball.

Tim: You took a chunk out of the divot.

Mike: Yeah. Out of the ground.

Tim: But you don't chunk the chunk of grass. You chuck. But people from Texas, they are like-

Chris: It's like warsh.

Tim: Well, they say pumpkin chunking.

Chris: Pumpkin?

Tim: Pumpkin chunking? Pumpkin chunking?

Tim: It's something that they do in Texas. And so, they're all convinced that the word is chunking.

Mike: When I hear the word chunk, I think of The Goonies.

Tim: Totally.

Mike: Yeah. It was the only way.

Tim: You can't even throw him.

Mike: Yeah. There's one time is the worst part. It's the worst thing I ever done. I made this fake throw up. I went to this movie and I [inaudible 00:09:49] my jacket. And then I got in the top and I threw it over the balcony. I made this noise like-

Emmoe: Wow. [inaudible 00:09:59] applause.

Chris: I'm so excited that none of us have self control to stop a [inaudible 00:10:05]

Emmoe: I was like, keep going.

Chris: None of us.

Mike: So one time I used my uncle's tope when I played Moses in my Hebrew school play. This one time I pushed my sister down this stairs and I blamed it on the [inaudible 00:10:17]

Tim: So, anywho, strong.

Emmoe: Man, you've got actor, Mike D.

Tim: Mike Lee. Total actor.

Chris: I don't know why you did music.

Mike: Tell me about it.

Tim: Acting is reacting.

Emmoe: That's good.

Tim: Well, I mean, I didn't have that on my list of things that you do. So what I was going to say to you, Mike, is that you... I was thinking you're an author.

Mike: I suppose.

Tim: You've got a book out.

Mike: Sure. It's a very cute title.

Mike: Thank you.

Tim: I wrote it down. Finding God's Life For My Will.

Mike: That is what I was going for, is cute.

Tim: I know. That's probably not the best word.

Mike: Cute.

Tim: But I would like to talk about that. You're also a podcaster?

Mike: Yep.

Tim: You do that?

Mike: I do this as well.

Tim: You're what we like to call a singer songwriter-

Mike: I sure hope so.

Tim: ... artist. You left the band for king country.

Mike: I did. They kept asking me in the band. I said no.

Tim: Was it your accent?

Mike: Yeah.

Tim: Can you do a good Australian accent?

Mike: Here's Brucey. I was thinking about-

Chris: This is Mike Dundee.

Mike: I promise. I swear that I will not eat a fish on my honor.

Tim: Okay, good. I think we got that part. What I did not add to it was actor or reactor.

Mike: Reactor. Thank you.

Chris: Also, we need to say the real name of his band. 10thavenue north.

Mike: I was in the band called Tenth Avenue North.

Tim: For how long?

Mike: 21 years.

Tim: Chaka-khan, that's long.

Mike: That's a long time.

Tim: Would you talk quickly about finding God's life for my will? What was your whole point with that thing? I didn't read it.

Mike: Great.

Tim: But somebody might.

Chris: Could you convince me to read it right now?

Mike: As a songwriter, I would often write in long form. I actually was blogging on my space before I was songwriting. So blogging writing a little more long form comes very naturally to me. Over the years, I'd get a lot of people asking me, "When did you know this was God's will for your life, to be in this thing? And I think when you're in a visible platform doing something that seems very connected to spirituality, people just think that you must have had this divine holy calling. I always say to people, I don't know. They don't like that answer. They want to know when because I know God's going to just... I don't know. God never really told me to do it. He didn't tell me not to. And I really love writing songs and have come to love it. So I'm just trying to write songs in a way that actually help people. So the whole book is try not to figure out God's will try to let God's life change your will is probably really what we all need. And it could really be summed up in this Frederick Buechner sentence. You ever read any Fredie B? He's the best.

Mike: He said your calling is where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meat. So, the idea is... It's been my experience. A lot of people in church circles, they either talk about, "I need to come alive." There's that St Ignatius quote, "The glory of God is man fully alive." So in one of the John Eldredge books, he talks about that. You don't need to ask what the world needs. You need to ask yourself what makes you come alive because what the world needs is people who have come alive. And I said, "Yeah, that's nice, but that's just half of it." Right? I totally agree. You need to ask what could I do that's going to fill me, get me excited, make me want to get out of bed in the morning, give me passion, all that. But if you only ask that, you'll just become a ego maniac, narcissist.

Mike: But on the flip side, a lot of people in church circles will go, "Hey, what does the world need? What does the world need? World needs water, world needs orphanages, world needs this." So a lot of people who actually are aren't wired to do that run and go try to do it because that's what the world's needs. And then what happens? They burn out. So I love Frederick Buechner's philosophy here. It's both. You have to ask both questions. What am I good at? What am I wired to do? Where's my deep gladness? And how can I do that thing in a way that actually meets the world's great hunger and needs? So-

Tim: So, we are in a series of sorts on practicing the presence of God.

Mike: Brother Lawrence.

Tim: Brother, Lawrence. But taking it out of just being a cute little book that is awesome. And it is a little book.

Mike: It makes me feel better that you called my book cute because you called brother Lawrence's book cute too.

Tim: You're in good company right now.

Mike: Good company. Okay.

Tim: But we're trying to take that out of just this conceptual idea and put it into practice like this week, what would it look like for us to practice the presence of God? And I think what you're bringing in is this idea of the will of God. And, I mean, how many times have we asked that? When I was younger, how many people have asked me that, "Hey, how do you know the will of God for my life?" So, I just wanted to dive into the idea of practicing the presence of God. How do you do that and look for... Is it the will of God? Is that what we're looking for? Which I think the answer is no. So, what's it practically look like for you?

Mike: Okay. I'll tell you something really tangible here because... Short answer, what's God's will for my life? Well, one thing I know is to not be afraid. I've been saying this to my wife all last week. I said, "What if we weren't afraid? Just what if we weren't afraid? And what if we believed we're loved?" Those two things... Because the most repeated command in the Bible is do not be afraid. Right. 365 times, which... I don't know if that's actually true or-

Tim: Sounds good though.

Mike: ... people just want it to be true. Finagled it a little bit.

Tim: They're actually 439.

Mike: The point it's most repeated command in all scripture. So you could argue the number one thing God wants for our life is to not be afraid, to not live in fear. And what drives out fear? Perfect love cast out all fear. Right? So really tangibly, I was talking to my counselor. I go to Porter's Call because they offer free counseling to artists. My dude there was explaining... Because I was saying this last week we sold a house and we're buying a new house. And I was full of all this anxiety. And he said, "You know what anxiety it is?" I go, "No." He goes, "Your brain is telling you that life is going to move faster than it actually is." Isn't that good? Because the reason we get afraid is our fight or flight part of our brain, the lizard brain, is trying to see around corners and preemptively see danger so we can be ready for it.

Mike: And anxiety is you're physically manifesting that, getting ready for something bad to happen. And so, this week I've just been taking a big breath and going, that's not there. It's not here now. That's not here now. That's what I keep saying. As you read headlines of news and just... Things are going to be worse and they're going to be worse and they're going to get worse and everything's going to... That's not here now. You can't practice the presence of God without practicing the present. Right. There's a really great quote I love to tell myself that I think we talked about when we wrote... We wrote a song together, Chris and I, called Glory I Couldn't See, which kind of is about this. But there's a quote that says the secret to peace is to embrace your current circumstance as if you had chosen it. That until you choose your moment, you're actually a victim to your moment.

Tim: Say that line one more time.

Mike: You must embrace your current circumstance as if you had chosen it. So when you're feeling like a victim and you're going, "Oh, I don't like this circumstance. I don't like this hand I've been dealt. I don't want to be here." If you're resisting it, then you can't actively participate in it. You have to, at some point, go I choose this. I don't choose that it happened, but I choose where I am right now.

Tim: Okay. So before we go any further, I just want to say these lines again. And I'd love for you to put this into your own context. He said you can't practice the presence of God without practicing the present. What's it look like for you to practice the present moment with God? And then embrace your circumstances as if you were choosing it with what you've gone through in your life so far. How does that settle on you? Okay. So I'm going to get real right now. Is that okay?

Mike: I love real.

Tim: How does that set with you? So Emmoe lost her brother and-

Emmoe: 10 years ago.

Tim: 10 years ago. How does that line set with you? How does that work in real life? So I love theoretical ideas, but how does this work when the stuff hits the fan?

Emmoe: I mean, I think today that is where I am. I think today, I do participate in my grief and I participate in the ways I need Jesus. I think before, it felt like could didn't align with who He is. So I think I also had to just be open and curious with the ways God could love me because I think before I had a really set view. And so, I'm not going to participate in something that doesn't really reflect love or reflect God. All of this isn't of Him. But now 10 years later, I think I'm like, "Do I wish my brother back?" I mean, I think it'd make people uncomfortable if I said no, because I've experienced Jesus in such a different way. And I know that sounds so messy and complex, but I think I'm embracing where I'm at now and the parts of my life that God has truly been God, if that makes sense.

Emmoe: But I think a few years ago... I think especially in the beginning of grief, you're like, "I will not participate. I will not accept this." You're in that denial stage. You're in the bargaining, all those things. But I struggle with a lot of anxiety too, because I'm expecting the next death and I'm expecting the next tragedy and kind of accepting what today has actually helped me with my anxiety. So I do agree with that statement. I wouldn't say a every day I agree with it, but most days I do.

Chris: Yeah. It seems like you have to go through those stages of grief to get to acceptance, to get to that place. Right? You've got to take the time to get there. And that's for grief. It could be just like, "Something happened today that I didn't choose, but in order for me not to be a victim of it, I have to live my life as I did." And I think that's really powerful and more of a short distance run than kind of a long distance run of the grief of losing someone.

Tim: How else, Mike, would this be practical? In your week, give me an example of how this plays out.

Mike: Okay. Really great, but very practical, my wife is away on a trip to Mexico. I have four daughters right now. Having four girls, great. Just means someone's always crying. And it's usually me. But this last week, they have been... I don't know if there's a full moon, but they are amping up the wailing and the weeping. The needle is through the roof. You're getting therm back to the future where [inaudible 00:22:14] hit's the guitar. And one of the ways that we really hurt our children is when we make them feel as if they are too much for us.

Mike: And a lot of hurt and damage we do is you need to get it together. Well, why do they need to get it together? Because it's triggering me. And so one of the things I have to do is go, I'm here now. And I choose my daughter and I choose to be here with her even though she's losing her mind. And it is fascinating because we have this thing in our house. You're allowed to be sad. I feel like a lot of people I know, grow up, certain emotions are wrong and certain emotions are right. And that's not true. All emotions are a gift, and they're telling you something-

Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Revealing stuff.

Mike: ... if you can listen to it. And so, it's fascinating to me when I go "Stop it. Just be quiet. Just don't do that. Don't do that. Don't flip your lid." And I do think you've got to teach your kids the difference between being sad and losing their mind. We've got to teach them that, but more often than not, we air the side of squashing unnecessarily. And so, for me, the words my wife and I use is when they escalate, I must remain the same because it's all they want to know. All they really want to know is am I too much? Am I too much? I'm okay. You're okay. It's phenomenal how... If I just sit there and I don't escalate, I go, we're not going to do that right now. They're all different ages. They all flail in different ways. And if I can just stay there and say, I choose to be here. It's amazing how quickly they'll re correct when I don't try to help them re correct.

Tim: And what's that look like as you're talking about choosing to be somewhere in the presence of God? As you're with in the present moment, in the presence of God, is that the practice?

Mike: I think for a lot of parent here, here's something that I'm really-

Tim: I mean, this is somebody on the street driving a car and somebody cuts me off. I mean, this isn't all areas.

Mike: Right. I'm going to stick with a tangible here. I remember when we had two kids and we had this friend group, and we would go over to each other's houses and we would have a meal once a week or a couple times a month. We'd have some worship and prayer time. But it was a huge sacrifice because we all had little kids and we'd bring them and try to put them down in our friends' bedrooms to have this night where we could feel like normal humans. It was a couple weeks into that, and my second child was just losing her mind, inconsolable. And I'm in this room. All my friends are in the other room having a party basically. I mean, they're having food. They're laughing. They're talking. And I'm just going, "You are keeping me from where I want to be." And there was this moment where I just heard this whisper in my head of "Your friends are going to come and go. You're going to be this kid's father forever."

Tim: Wow.

Mike: So, choose this child over your friends. Yeah. That's so hard because as parents we're called to do that night after night after night after night. Think how many things you say no to and you can't go be at because you have to put your kids down to bed and to be there. But if I am actively resisting and resenting the fact that I'm putting my kid to bed... I mean, last night my sister came over and same thing. I wanted to get my kids to bed faster because I wanted to sit and talk to my sister. And it's that tension of going, "No, I have to sit here." And so, I mean, last night I was trying to get my two youngest to bed. And they weren't going to bed. This just doesn't always work out this way. But I go, "You know what, my sister can wait." And I started singing songs to them and they both fell asleep in five minutes, where I think if I had kept resisting and "Go to bed. Go to bed. Just be quiet," they would've been a up for 30 more minutes.

Mike: So that's a tangible thing. It's funny you talk about road rage. Last week, my wife and I were walking down the side of the road on our street. There's an Amazon truck in front of us with the blinkers on, on the side of the road. And this truck swings around it and then comes barreling directly at us. And we, I mean, jump over off the road. And then he drives by and he starts cussing and yelling at us. And so he gets past us. And I jump out in the street and I lift my hands up and I go, "Hey," like that. And then I suddenly realize I have just elevated this unnecessarily. And so, then I just started dancing.

Emmoe: Disarm.

Mike: Well, that actually probably made it worse because he slams his brakes, throws in reverse-

Tim: Oh my guys.

Mike: ... comes like "You losing a-hole. Well, you jumped out in front of my truck."

Mike: I went, "No, I did not, sir." He goes, "Yes you did. Where do you live a-hole? Where do you live?"

Mike: Yeah. I said, "I'm so sorry, sir. I did not," just trying to be as polite as possible. And then-

Tim: Did you not see my dance moves?

Mike: Yeah. And then he peeled off. So, sometimes there's nothing you can do to put the fire out.

Tim: But there's a putting a fire out within your own soul. I mean, in that moment, you're in crazy land. My kids get me in that place all the time. Or there's some kind of road something that happens. I mean, I get into that place that my kids get and I can't even get out of it. It's like finding sobriety and getting to a place where I need to take a breath and go, "Okay, I'm here in this present moment with you, Jesus."

Mike: Can I tell you, practically?

Tim: Yes.

Mike: Breathing is the most underrated unutilized weapon we have against anxiety and tension. I just did this breath work meditation thing with a guy out in Wyoming. I was at this retreat in Wyoming and there's a guy there who... He just kind of mumbled like "I do breath work." And I go "Really," because my best friend in the world is obsessed with this guy named Wim Hof. You know who he is? I think he's German. But he leads all these people in these breathing things and ice baths, breathing and ice baths. And this guy is nuts. I mean, he'll go swim in a frozen lake for as long as he wants. And people get healed of all this stuff. There's all these studies being done about DET, DHT... What's the acid chemical?

Tim: I don't know.

Mike: The chemical they make acid out with is naturally occurring in your lungs. Did you know that? And when you do these certain breaths, you release that chemical [crosstalk 00:29:21] into your body. And so, I did this thing in Wyoming. I mean, we were laying in this field next to this river and we all had mats. And he had this playlist on a speaker and he's burning sage. Some of the guys were very uncomfortable. I was going, "Yeah, dude, let's do it." And all we did was lay on our backs and breathe. That was it. But he had these cycled breathings. And I'm telling you, okay, my whole life, since I've been an artist, I have desperately struggled with comparison and jealousy of other artists. And I take all these steps to not... I do my best. I-

Chris: Which is hard to believe because you've had a pretty good career.

Mike: Completely. You're such a jerk, Mike. And I even know comparison is the thief of joy and that the best way-

Tim: We know all these things.

Mike: The best way to get out out of comparison is to celebrate others. And I do think that's a really good, tangible thing to do. But I laying on the field, just breathing for this hour. I had one of the most physical meet spiritual experiences of my life. And the thing that just would always come in my chest, where I felt this comparison and jealousy for other artists, was gone. And it's been a month and I have not felt it at all. And it's wild. And it was coupled with that morning I went on this paddle board thing. And we're in the mountains. I'm on this pristine lake on paddle board. It might have just been, it was my first to time away from my kids screaming all the time.

Mike: And I really felt like the Holy Spirit said, "Mike, if I am for you, I'm for them. And if you want me to be for you, you need to be for them." And it's not either, or. It's both, and. And the fact that I'm for you actually amplifies the fact that I'm for them. And the fact that I'm for them amplifies the fact that I'm for you. And you need to quit believing that I don't have enough to go around. And so, I don't know. Brennan Manning would talk about this breath prayer. It's Abba I belong to you. So you inhale. Abba, I belong to you. And if you go back, there's actually a lot of spiritual fathers have these breath work prayers.

Tim: Yeah. We do a ton of that in 10000 MINUTES stuff.

Mike: Yeah. Great. Thanks for letting me talk about that.

Tim: [crosstalk 00:32:06] But it's fascinating. I mean, I love it that you-

Emmoe: It keeps bringing up-

Tim: Last week-

Emmoe: Yeah. Keeps coming up.

Chris: I wonder if the presence of God is a lot like the presence of our kids. I don't need to go achieve anything to show up for my kids. I just need to be present, and I just need to show up.

Mike: You actually need to not achieve something to be there.

Chris: Yeah. You it's counterintuitive. And I think with God, it's almost the same thing. It's like, "Okay, I need to not show up in all these other places and just recognize that we're here. And that's the hardest part about all this." I think that's why breathing helps because it lets everything else go, right. There's nothing else happening. And I think practicing the presence of God in any of those moments is like, "Let it all go. God, you're still here." And maybe this is the point of all of it.

Mike: Isn't that Yahweh is the breath. Isn't that why-

Tim: Right.

Mike: It's a sound of the breath.

Tim: Yeah. We're always giving different prayers. I think that Brennan Manning stuff has been really helpful, whether it's Jesus, I trust you today. That becomes your prayer that week. Or Jesus then you have my attention. These things that we're doing. I wonder if it's something for people who are listening. So I was thinking about your experience when you're laying there and you found great freedom. For all the people who right now are in the car or on a run or doing something, what's the invitation for the rest of us? I mean, I've been on those trips too, but then most of the year, I'm not on those trips. And I need some clarity and I need some insight and some help.

Mike: So, here's something that I don't think enough of us take into consideration. I've been reading loud articles on successful people. And I'm always interested people who... And I'm always looking for, what is so... And so I'm reading all these articles. Almost every single high performing... It's so ironic, right, because we want to achieve more and more and more and more. But they all talk about the health involved with turning off your phone at night and when you turn it on in the morning. You know Carlos Whittaker?

Tim: Yeah.

Mike: He just did this little thing. He was talking about story fatigue. And I thought this was really great. And I have to double check the sources here, but I've heard something similar from other people. It's something like from the beginning of humanity to 2003, all the content that the world created, that much content from the beginning of humanity to 2003, is how much content we now create every two days. Right? And that's what we're doing right now. We're created content people will listen to. And he said, "We wake up in the morning and we get on our phone. And in 15 minutes, we have ingested more stories and more content than our grandparents consumed in a month."

Tim: That's crazy.

Mike: And so, that's why you look at all the charts, anxiety is just through the roof. Depression is through the roof. I think it's because we're being told about more things to be afraid of and more things we're supposed to care about than we're actually created to be able to process. And the desire to be like God... It's so funny, right, Tower of Babel, that was the sin is we want to be like God. And think about the shame you get if you don't care about every single thing that's happening in the world. And I go, "I'm not meant to" In fact, what ends up happening is we take in so much content it paralyzes us. And we don't know where to-

Tim: For our own story

Mike: ... to steer our ship. And we don't know what we're allowed to care about. Even, I just put out a record and I'm feeling insensitive posting about my record because... Well, there's all these other things happening in the world. How dare I be so inconsiderate. And I go, "Well..." I just think a lot of us don't understand just how wide sweeping the effects are of us taking in so much information. To speak to that, I had this ritual because at the end of the day, you have to make time. You just do.

Tim: For anything-

Mike: So when I was in my twenties, I worked at this church. And I worked 120 hours a week. I was an intern, and I lived right next to the church. I was on call. I was just always working. But every morning, I would ride my bike three miles down the road to this park. And then I'd run this circuit loop and I'd do this workout. But then after my workout, I would go and I'd sit on these bleachers by the soccer field. And I would read scripture and I would journal and I would sit there and I would pray. I'd take a prayer walk around the fields, and then I'd ride my bike back. I think it was George Mueller. Do you know who he is? He's a British guy.

Mike: I think he said this. He may not have, but pretty sure he said, "When I wake up and I have so much more on my plate, I spend twice as long praying." And that idea of really making space... I think of prayer, not as something I achieve or that I do. But I think of prayer as space that I create. Because that's that's all God needs is space where he can fill. Right. He's not someone I have to achieve to. He's someone I have to let in. Right. And that's another fascinating thing. I'm just riffing here. But one of the things I've been really fascinated with... And I don't know practically how this goes. I love that you're pushing for these practical things. But in Colossians, Paul says over and over and over "Let." It's like his favorite word in the book of Colossians.

Mike: He says, "Let the peace of God rule in your heart. Let your roots go down into Christ." Jesus even said, "Let not your hearts be troubled." I love that because he's saying you have a new default, actually. Your new default is that peace is at your door trying to get in. And all you have to do is stop actively resisting the peace. One of the things I do when my wife leaves... My wife is the most faithful woman. She has given me zero reason to ever doubt her faithfulness. And yet, when she goes on trips... Having toured for years and years, I always try to give her plenty of trips on her own too and watch the kids. PS, if you're having marital problems and you have a husband who leaves, just flip the script, husband stay home with your kids. And I bet 90% of your problems are going to get sorted.

Chris: Big in our marriage. Same thing.

Mike: Yeah. But on her trips, I will start creating a narrative. "She's probably out with a guy. She probably met a guy on a trip. She probably talk to guy." Because I think my wife is stunning and that guys are just hitting on her all the time. I go, "How could they not? They should be because she's gorgeous." I don't want them to, but... And it's one of those things where I am actively resisting the peace that wants to get in by creating narratives. Why am I doing that? And so I don't know how you need to do this, but really, anyone listening, let the peace of God rule in your heart. It wants to, and all you have to do is stop actively resisting and making up stories of why you shouldn't have peace.

Tim: I was trying to think through the idea of letting it in or is it awakening to what already exists?

Mike: I mean, Paul says "Let the peace of God rule in your heart. Let your roots go down." There is the reality that it's already doing it. Let your roots go down into Christ. Well, roots are growing.

Tim: Yeah. Regardless.

Mike: But if you put a wall where the roots trying to go, they're going to grow sideways. I think that's a really good word. If we stifle and resist, things come out sideways.

Tim: How do you stifle and resist?

Mike: Well, I just told you one way. Another way is-

Tim: I mean, practically, is it believing the... Let's just go to the comparison because that's also a theme that we've had recently. What's the practical thing that we're doing as we're comparing.

Mike: I've got a good one. So for instance, I always struggle with... I put out new music and I feel like I have to post a ton about it because if I don't tell people about it, then no one is going to hear about it. So of the things that I do and I see lots of other artists do is when other people post about it, you repost it. And so, I just got into this new habit of... I'm doing that, which is self-promotion. And I still wrestle with it and I could be wrong. So feel free to judge this statement. But I found a really freeing thing is when someone I know posts about it, then I repost their post and I talk about them and how great what they're doing is. So I'm still trying to promote myself, but I'm at the same time going, but my stuff isn't the only stuff out there.

Mike: In fact, this person's stuff is amazing. This is so good. I found when it gets late at night, if my wife has gone or she's already in bed, that's usually when I get real in my fields. I'm a four on the Enneagram, a social force. People mistake me as a seven because I'm the counter type of the four. I don't know. For all you Enneagram lovers out there... Four hard three wing, obviously. Sorry. If you don't understand Enneagram out there, I'm not trying to make you feel isolated. But I understand the feelings of isolation.

Emmoe: That's too real. Too real.

Mike: So, as a four, I get in my feels at night. And here's a real practical thing that I've been doing is in that moment when I feel really lonely... And the problem is I'm learning how to ask someone to come over. I feel lonely. I need to reach out and ask someone to hang out. And that's a struggle for me, I think, because I toured so long that I never had the time. It was always, "Well I'm home now. I've got to be home. Or maybe it's too late to ask someone over." You know what I do? I just start looking through my contacts and just started sending people text messages of why I love them. Has nothing to do with me. 100% other directed. And you know what's fascinating? 30 minutes of that, I feel incredible because I realize I have these amazing people in my life, and they're incredible. And isn't that amazing. There's that beauty of self forgetfulness as Tim Keller says.

Tim: Love that.

Mike: That's a really good practical thing, particularly when you're feeling lonely and isolated.

Tim: Yeah. I love that.

Mike: But I never get to the Ts. That's why I don't.

Tim: Ts are far down.

Chris: You feel better about the Ps. Although I'm a C and I haven't got one of those texts yet. So, I feel-

Mike: [crosstalk 00:43:16] my [inaudible 00:43:17] stars go down.

Tim: [crosstalk 00:43:18]

Chris: That was quick. And I appreciate it.

Mike: I want to say, vulnerability puts you in the present, transparency doesn't.

Tim: Give the difference.

Mike: So transparency is, "Hey look at all this stuff that I struggle with." Vulnerability is, "Hey, I really struggle with being alone. Would you come sit with me." And true vulnerability gives you the freedom to say yes, no, or maybe.

Tim: Gives the other person-

Mike: Otherwise, it's not vulnerability, it's manipulation. If I say I've been really lonely and I'm going to kill myself if you don't come over, that's not vulnerability. That's manipulation, coercion. And transparency would be like, "Yeah. I'm really struggling. Really horrible. I have horrible thoughts and feelings." And I think a lot of us pride ourselves in how transparent we can be. And usually transparency is pretty curated-

Tim: For sure.

Mike: ... or it's just not asking the next move. That's been something I've been really fascinated by is the difference of authenticity and vulnerability because I think we live in a culture that really think... They've conflated the two. They think they're the same thing.

Tim: We love when people are transparent or authentic, but the vulnerability part is actually not that encouraged. Because-

Mike: You can't really be vulnerable on Instagram. It's voyeuristic. And if something's voyeuristic, it's not vulnerable. I would say Brene Brown could come on and disagree with me. But-

Tim: Next week. Thank you.

Mike: Yeah. You're welcome.

Chris: I have to take two seconds and just fan girl about Mike because... And I want it on the record because I've been jealous of him for numerous reasons, even aside from his career. Right? This comparison thing. First time I met him and just thought he was great. The biggest thing... And I literally talked to somebody about this last week, and I can't remember what it was. This was in a song. And I said, "Freaking Mike Donehey, he always knows these quotes and he knows the guy's names and he knows the exact quote. And he brings it like..." He said like 20 of them today. And I'm like, "I read a book and I think it may have had an author, and here was kind of the gist of it." And I'm like, "I'm so jealous of the fact that you know quotes."

Mike: To make you feel better, Jesus, all the time goes, "The scriptures says..." So don't beat yourself up-

Chris: Other than that, Mike does have a sneaking awesome record that's out that he just released called Flourish. And he let me sit in a room while he wrote one of the best songs I've ever set in a room for that I'm really pumped about and a podcast that I've listened to every episode of so... Okay. That's all my fanboy moments. So, there it is.

Tim: You have a fan boy, girl. Mike, we've got 10000 questions for you.

Mike: I'm ready.

Tim: This is what we like to call speed around.

Mike: Yeah. 10000. It'd better be fast.

Tim: It's super quick. It's super quick. Oh gosh. The first one we've already talked about it. Who's your favorite touring workout buddy?

Mike: Tim Timmons.

Emmoe: Oh my gosh.

Tim: I didn't even write these. That's the crazy part. These just popped up.

Chris: It's just a Google search.

Tim: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:46:42] a Google search.

Mike: It was actually some popcorn guy at this arena that I worked out with after you.

Tim: No.

Emmoe: Some popcorn guy.

Mike: He was amazing.

Tim: Okay. Hobby?

Mike: Golf, I guess. That's a hobby, right?

Tim: Yeah. It's a hobby.

Mike: Sure.

Chris: It's not a sport. It's not a sport.

Mike: That's for sure. That's awesome.

Tim: Do you have any other hobbies?

Mike: No.

Tim: Not that one wasn't good.

Mike: Do I have any other hobbies?

Tim: Yeah.

Mike: Man, sure. Sure, I do.

Emmoe: That's a great answer.

Mike: Right now, my kids just got back at school. So I feel like my hobby is picking them up and dropping them off from school.

Tim: Totally.

Mike: That's my hobby right now.

Tim: Totally. Favorite song you didn't write?

Mike: Favorite song. Lately, there's a Switchfoot song that goes, "If you can let the paint of the past go. None of this is in your control." You hear that one?

Tim: [inaudible 00:47:41]

Mike: You could only let you God down. You can just believe it. I swear that I won't let you go. Won't let you go, that's what it's called. The melody is just absurd, so absurd.

Tim: Whatever on him. Three words to describe yourself.

Mike: Complicated-

Tim: Yep. Complicated.

Mike: ... gregarious and excitable.

Tim: Yes. I like all those. Weird quirk about you. Maybe, you know big words. Some quirky thing about Mike D, about Mike Lee.

Mike: There's so many to choose from is the problem.

Chris: Anybody who jumps in the middle of a street and dances is... They've got the whole thing.

Mike: I can't not eat potato chips late at night. I eat so healthy. So-

Tim: Specifically, potato chips?

Chris: How many do you eat?

Mike: I mean, I'm-

Chris: Do you have self control?

Mike: I'm doing better at not pounding the whole bag, but I'll get a bowl... I make myself get a bowl or something. And sometimes I will just eat a whole bag.

Chris: I have a very similar situation in relationship with Fruit Snacks.

Tim: Yeah. It's awkward.

Mike: Fruit Snacks.

Chris: Serious problem. I eat so healthy during the day, and then bags and bags of free snacks.

Mike: That's amazing.

Chris: Just eat all my kids stuff.

Tim: We had his wife on here and she was giving us-

Mike: I wonder if you could get a placebo saline-

Chris: Maybe. I think you maybe could.

Mike: ... gummies with... Well there's other gummies you could eat that would make you eat even more gummies.

Chris: Yeah. Does not help.

Mike: Yeah. Anyway-

Emmoe: Oh man.

Mike: And maybe some essential oil, just something that's zero caloric that you could just-

Chris: I need it.

Mike: ... crush.

Tim: I don't know if the calories are the issue though for you.

Chris: I mean, I feel like they're going to kill me.

Tim: Yeah.

Chris: I'm to that age in life-

Mike: It can't be good for you.

Chris: It can't.

Mike: Can't be good for you.

Chris: It can't be. Anyways.

Tim: Okay. Pet peeve?

Mike: Pet peeve?

Tim: Yeah.

Mike: When guys run me off the road and then cuss at me for walking. Big pet peeve.

Tim: Yeah. What about that?

Mike: Just being accused of doing something wrong that you didn't do.

Tim: Yes. There it is. The incense-

Mike: I am so innocent in this situation.

Tim: Right.

Mike: The perceived guilt with which you are shading upon me is preposterous.

Tim: Misunderstood. How do you do when you're misunderstood in life?

Mike: I dance.

Tim: Dance upon injustice.

Mike: I will say, I used to be really, really defensive. And maybe not even defensive... I went the other way. I went despairing, defeated when someone would call me out. I'm getting better at going. It could be true. Definitely. Let me think about that.

Tim: Favorite joke?

Mike: That I can share?

Tim: Exactly. Exactly.

Mike: Oh boy. I love this one. There's two whales sitting at a bar, and the one whale says to the other whale... And the other whale says, " Dang it, Frank, you're drunk. Just go home."

Tim: That's good.

Emmoe: That's so good.

Tim: That's really good.

Mike: Two whales. I think it's the funniest part is the two whales are sitting there at the bar. I picture them-

Emmoe: And his name is Frank.

Chris: I picture blue whales with the-

Tim: Like beluga?

Chris: Yeah. I mean-

Mike: I definitely don't picture killer whales.

Chris: No. It's not killer whales.

Tim: That's not funny.

Mike: Killer whales. Calm down guys. Leave the seals alone.

Tim: What are you most afraid of?

Mike: Killer whales.

Tim: Always.

Mike: Spiders.

Chris: Really?

Mike: I mean-

Chris: I thought you'd have something more existential.

Mike: You'd think so. I think it's because I saw-

Tim: Yeah. Spiders are that gnarly.

Mike: I saw Arachnophobia as kid.

Tim: Me too.

Mike: And we live in Tennessee. There's black widows and brown recluses everywhere.

Tim: Do you remember where you saw it?

Mike: Yeah. Nate Nate Rue's basement. The worst-

Tim: Jerk. What's his name?

Mike: Nate Whitley.

Tim: I hate that kid.

Mike: He's such a good kid. I hate that-

Tim: I hate his basement then.

Mike: Yeah. I hate that he exposed me to that. Greatest fear, probably being cheated on and left by my wife. That's probably... Which is why I create the story.

Tim: Totally.

Mike: So there's something in my story. I need to go to therapy.

Chris: Something deeper in there.

Mike: There's something in my thinking I'm going to get.

Chris: Are your parents together?

Mike: Not chosen maybe.

Chris: Yeah. Maybe that's it.

Mike: It's not even the being left. It's the not preferring me over someone else. My parents are still together. They're awesome.

Tim: I've met them. Bucket list?

Mike: Besides doing this podcast?

Tim: Obviously.

Mike: Bucket list. I really do want to play a concert at Red Rocks even more than the Ryman. I've gotten to open up for people at the Ryman. So, I would love to headline a show at the Ryman, but-

Tim: We played at the Ryman together.

Mike: Yeah. But it's different when you're playing for someone else's crowd.

Tim: It's different.

Mike: But playing my own show at Red Rocks, I mean, that's a pretty tall ask. But if it happened, that'd be amazing.

Chris: Let's go. Spring 2022 baby.

Mike: I'm doing it.

Chris: Let's go.

Mike: 50 people in the front row.

Chris: Doesn't even matter.

Mike: [crosstalk 00:53:19] empty.

Tim: Thanks for doing this.

Mike: Oh my goodness. What a gift.

Tim: So good. Okay. Well, you guys, thanks for listening. Thanks for being a part of this. If there are ways that we can help or encourage you to join Jesus or be more aware of him in your 10000 minutes, I do love hearing where you're listening and what you guys are learning. So please feel free to let us know either through Facebook or Instagram or you can text us back on the text thread, or if you get the emails, you can reply to those emails. Okay. Thanks. You guys. 10000 MINUTES: The Experiment out.

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