012: Be The Church Online

Pastor Jeff Maguire joins us this week as we unpack the purpose of the local church, our personal church hurt and the importance of gathering as God’s people. We all find ourselves online now more than ever! How has the church presented itself on social media? How are we RE-PRESENTING Jesus online?

This week’s Practice: Be The Church Online

+ 012 Be the Church Online - Jeff Maguire Transcript

Jeff: Are you used to having super famous people like me in here? Because I'm kind of a big deal, you know? I just want to make sure we're all clear. [crosstalk 00:00:07]

Tim: Everybody, that was Jeff McGuire. That's actually the best intro we've had yet.

Jeff: Shut up.

Tim: Everybody welcome to the 10000 Minute Experiment podcast. We've got Chris Cleveland.

Chris: Yo.

Tim: We've got Emmoe Doniz.

Emmoe: Yes, that's me.

Tim: And my name's Tim Timmons.

Chris: We've got my name.

Tim: We've got the hottest guy here and then next to the hottest guy here is one of literally one of my favorite humans on the entire planet. His name is Steve... Whoops. Jeff McGuire.

Jeff: Yeah, I go by Jeff. Hey everybody, good to be with you.

Tim: Steve Johnson actually is a name. I don't know where Steve Johnson came from.

Jeff: I made it up. I think I was in college. I made it up, and in your original, I think in two or three of your albums [crosstalk 00:00:53] I'm in the liner notes as special thanks to Steve Johnson, which nobody... It's the stupidest joke because I'm anonymous either way, but I would rather... Nobody knows who I am, but I'm somehow credited with something, special thanks.

Tim: Jeff and I have been BFFs really since seventh grade.

Jeff: You were trying to do the math, it's like 30 some years.

Tim: Yeah.

Chris: Oh my gosh.

Emmoe: What?

Jeff: I mean that's how old we are. We're 30 some years.

Tim: Yeah, I was really smart. I'm 35 now, and so when I was three years old I was in seventh grade and so that's magical.

Jeff: Savants.

Tim: I was thinking about so many of the dumb things we've done over the years. There's a handful, so if there's any dirt you have on me, I'm sure you could throw it into this thing, it would be great, and I'll just edit it right out.

Jeff: I mean, I'm sure that your listeners are well aware, Tim.

Tim: Jeff and I used to do this bit where we'd give each other words [crosstalk 00:01:43].

Jeff: Well, I was really the supplier of the words for the most part.

Tim: I don't know. I think we did it-

Jeff: It worked both ways.

Tim: Okay, well, explain the bit.

Jeff: We'd be in a conversation with somebody and he would just say dolphin and I'd have to put the word dolphin, or hair clip, or something, and then it got inappropriate at some points. [crosstalk 00:01:59].

Chris: Hairs clips are fairly inappropriate.

Emmoe: I know, I was like-

Chris: It's not a big leap from hair clips to inappropriate, for sure.

Emmoe: That's level 10 of that game. You can't do it.

Tim: Whatever on you guys. That's pretty good.

Jeff: But Tim was... You were the master at this. It was so fun. Nobody felt offended when you... I felt like when I was doing it, I was like, these people might punch me. But Tim could work anything into a conversation, people thought he was a hero. And I would do it, and I'm like, this is backfiring [crosstalk 00:02:23].

Chris: Have you done this on stage? Because I've done it a few times with the guys on stage.

Tim: Well, I guess in messages, we've kind of put that onto announcements.

Chris: Sure, yeah, there you go.

Tim: You got to say like pregnant or something in announcements.

Chris: Pregnant with anticipation.

Tim: But the problem is Jeff said that one time to a woman, I said "Pregnant," and he's like, "Are you pregnant?" No that's not true. But that would be an example. That's like typical of what could have been... That would've happened, for sure.

Emmoe: But it didn't. Clarification.

Tim: As far as we know. [crosstalk 00:02:53]. So if any of you guys were offended or have been offended by Jeff McGuire or Steve Johnson, I apologize. I'm so sorry.

Jeff: If you're pregnant right now.

Emmoe: Subscribe [crosstalk 00:03:00].

Tim: Hopefully you can already tell that you're going to love this 10000 Minute Experiment episode with Jeff McGuire. He is truly one of my favorite humans of all time. There's some brilliant stuff in this, so get ready.

Tim: Hey, if you want to join our 10000 Minute text thread, you can text 10K, one zero K, to 55678, and you'll start getting some of our weekly encouragements. Would you please rate this and subscribe to this podcast? And would you leave some even kind comments? That would be awesome. And lastly, if you want to support what we're doing, because it's been encouraging to you, would you please do that? Because this stuff takes a whole bunch of time and effort and money, so if this has been helpful for you, please go to 10000minutes.com and go to the donate section up on the upper right hand side and please give one time, give monthly. Thanks you guys, so much. Here we go.

Tim: Jeff, we've done many, many bits of life together, from raising children to getting married at the same time.

Jeff: Yeah. And our wives are best buds too. They're hanging out now. Which that was cool. I mean, when we were dating... We were dating. When we were dating. When Amanda and I were dating and Tim and Hillary were dating, I mean, Tim and I were buddies, but then it was to watch our wives be friends was kind of cool.

Tim: Real good gift. So Jeff's out in the Orange County, California.

Emmoe: The OC.

Tim: Jeff is a pastored out there. Pastor.

Jeff: Thank you. Yeah, both are true.

Tim: Pastor.

Jeff: I get words confused sometimes.

Tim: So you do that. I mean, you've been doing that for how long?

Jeff: Well, I mean, I started out as a youth person. I was an intern in a church. I never wanted to be a senior... I never thought, this is what I want to do. I thought those people were crazy. I kept never wanting to do what I was doing until I feel like I realized finally I was kind of wrestling with God enough to be like, I think I actually ought to come to grips the fact that I keep saying yes to this for a reason. So now I've been leading a church community since the 2013 as the senior guy, and always wondering when someone's going to tap me on the shoulder and be like, "I'm so sorry. Huge mistake. You're a really great guy and, I mean, that's really cool, but I just want to let you know, this has been a-

Chris: The search committee [crosstalk 00:05:03] it's not you.

Jeff: That's it exactly. And I would be like, "You're right. I'm so sorry. Whatever I screwed up, I'm so sorry." So now we're trying to figure out how to do that and do that well in a changing church landscape and world, so there you go.

Tim: Well, Jeff is one of the greatest pastors and the minds and thinkers that I know. Truly.

Jeff: Thanks.

Tim: I mean, I've got a lot of friends who are pastors, but to have you on here, I'm intentional about that, because you think through everything really well.

Jeff: Well, thank you. [crosstalk 00:05:30].

Tim: Jeff is funnier than crap. Here's the thing, is crap has a new... It's a new thing. It's like all the kids are saying it. Funnier than crap. It's better than crap.

Emmoe: We're rethinking crap later. That's in the series.

Tim: Series eight. Sweeping the nation.

Jeff: Sweeping the nation.

Chris: (Singing) I was going to do a Beach Boy song, but then I was like, no, I'm just going to keep this bit going too.

Emmoe: A word from our sponsors.

Tim: Jeff remembers when that song happened.

Chris: The Beach Boys?

Jeff: hat was really when I decided that God has called me to be a senior pastor of the church, it was that song.

Tim: What he's referring to everybody, and we will talk about it later, but remember when I talked with Bart and we shared that song that I'd written with the pastor that said he had written the lyrics and it was a poem, and so Jeff was in those days. So just revealed that to you, Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah, I did not know. I thought that was a wonderful collaboration between you two.

Tim: Cowriting, yeah. So everybody, Chris, or one of you who's listening actually, what'd they do?

Chris: They reached out, found the album on Amazon, sent us the link, and I now have in my possession maybe the last copy of Good Morning Lord known on the planet, so we're going to have to bring that on the podcast at some point.

Tim: Chris keeps sending me pictures, he and his wife keep sending me pictures, of this record.

Chris: I'm threatening you. It's a threat right now.

Jeff: [crosstalk 00:06:49] And if you're aunt or your uncle or something wrote the lyrics, please don't sue you [crosstalk 00:06:53] that's probably also something you're interested in getting out there.

Tim: Too true. Well, speaking of lyrics, we are talking about church today.

Emmoe: Every time you get me.

Chris: Nice segue.

Emmoe: I'm like, how is he going to do this? He did it. He does it guys.

Chris: Nice.

Tim: Well, it wasn't that good, but it felt good. So the practice this past week has been, being the church. That has been the practice. So the question we have, and we're just trying figure out, because we talk about church, you're a pastor, pastored, at a church community, but it's also a 501(c)(3), so how do we... Everybody will always talk about doing church or going to church, that's always been the conversation. Or every time we say church, it's generally about a thing or a place or a thing we do. What is church? Do you have thoughts? I mean, now that you're running a community, and you've already said church community and I say the same thing, just do it's not-

Jeff: I think I use that hyphenated phrase a lot, maybe more than I even realize. I think, first of all, our church is the way I build my brand and that's what I use it for. Next question. No, no, I'm just kidding. So, first of all, I was thinking, what are the different kind of versions of church? You have, first of all, the word, ecclesial, it's just the word that means assembly, so it wasn't like Jesus invented the word church, it was like, I have a name for our little gathering, we're going to call it... That wasn't a new word. So you could have a political group or something that could be just called the ecclesial, which would just be the called out group of people.

Tim: Right, because that was outside. That wasn't just a religious thing, it could be anything.

Jeff: Right it wasn't, so, yeah, exactly. So it's not like there was... And I was surprised by it. You could just imagine, in my brain I was like, Jesus got everybody together and was like, we're going to call this thing, get ready, brace yourselves.

Tim: Church.

Jeff: Cool thing, it's going to be a handle, people are going to be talking about it for years.

Chris: He hires this third party marketing consultant and we're so excited.

Emmoe: So good.

Jeff: Yeah, so, I mean, that was just to get my head around that idea. And I tend to think about what does it mean to be an assembly of people. And the Bible addresses different assemblies of people, different churches and different places. So there's that part of it. There's also the idea of the church being the incarnational, I know that's a very churchy word, bu literally the body of Christ. So how is the body of Christ inhabiting, in flesh, the world? Well, it's through his body, the church.

Jeff: And then you have the idea of the place, wherever the followers of Jesus are, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in people collectively, and individually is the church. And then I was thinking about the other part of it, so there's like five, I don't know how many, five different definitions, but then you also have the idea of what we think of as the institution of the church.

Jeff: I don't mean that in the most... That's a pretty negative term, but I mean that in the least negative way to think about there's the institution being the bricks and mortar, the programs, the place where our kids go, the youth ministry, the actual program of things that are happening, that the church... This is where the men's Bible study meets or the whatever gathering's happening, and it's where you turn the lights on and hopefully the AC works and all that kind of stuff. That's all of the... And that's part of it.

Jeff: I don't mean the big grand capital I institution sort of complex of whatever church is, that's a whole other thing. But then I think about the organic kind of components of church that are... There's the gathering of these people, while not being a part of some program that's initiated by the church, in the best part of the institution, together we're all going to go meet with this person who's hurting, or we're going to come alongside a person, or we're going to encourage this person, or we're going to pray for these people, or whatever else it might be. We're going to take action.

Jeff: That's not because the church designed a program for this, so to speak, but that's the organic kind of component of the church community that's just outflow. And within reason, I think people have said over the past 50 years, looking back at the past 50 years, particularly in American church, the institution has overshadowed the organic stuff in the church in a lot of ways. Like all bureaucracies, they start to serve the institution more than to serve the goals of the thing that they're doing.

Jeff: When I was working in a church, I was just so ticked off all the time. I can't believe this is what you're... And then now, to be leading it, I have a little bit more compassion for some of what I thought was just institutional bureaucracy. And some I'm like, well, I can only blame myself now if I repeat it, if I don't like it, which is also part of that as well.

Tim: What's the church's role in the 10 000 Minutes? We step back, we get go 50,000 foot view of church. I mean, I think all of us have grown up in the thing, and I think there's a bunch of people who are going, I don't know if I can just do the thing anymore, but we don't want to throw the baby out with a bath. So what's it look like to actually be the church? What's it look like to be gathered and scattered as the church? Tangibly, what's that look like?

Jeff: Well, I mean, I think the idea of this organic outpouring of love and community for the community of people and through the community of people to the world, is, I think, what you're asking, so I'll try to put it this way, and you and I have talked about this, but let's just say for instance, let's take a weekend experience. Almost everything as a teacher and a leader that I've thought through, has been thinking through the individual experience with people in Jesus. So it's like individual, we're all together and that's good, but we're all looking at each other like we're all running the same race, bu we're all running for our own time. We're all trying to finish the race at our best, but it's going to be us individually with Jesus.

Jeff: And I think I've actually been, for however long I've been in ministry, been trying to figure out how to help an individual person and their relationship with Jesus. And obviously there's things like forgiveness and there's all that other stuff that is-

Tim: There's a beauty to that.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. There's some stuff that works with that, and people being able to be through themselves to each other. We just finished a series we called it, Dear Church, Love Jesus, it was just the seven churches in Revelation, and I think one of the things I realized is those are all written to groups of people, they're written to whole assemblies of people. So how does an individual person see themselves as part of a community of believers for the sake of the world?

Jeff: Even this past year, thinking through you, can look at lots of different churches, is this a church that predominantly sees themselves as a church that's positioned against the world? And they would reasonably have scripture to back that up. I mean, there's the do not love the world or anything in it, and all that kind of stuff. And then you could have that understanding, like we got to survive the world and the world is out to get us and we got to figure out how to not get our kids infected by it and that kind of stuff.

Jeff: And then you also have churches that go, I think that we're here for the sake of the world. And you could characterize that as sort of like Jesus, his own prayer for his disciples, not that I would take you out of the world, but therefore go into the world. I mean all that stuff.

Jeff: You can see where I land on that sort of stuff. It's like, how do I help an individualized culture, especially in a political season where so much of the politics... Which politics is the business of enemy making. I mean, so it's like, how do people... And enemies usually come out of fear. So it's like, we have so much of the past year which is the other person, whoever the other is, you should fear them and they're probably a threat to you and your children. So you should know that, and then you should react accordingly.

Jeff: Trying to help a church community that has a whole bunch of different [crosstalk 00:13:44], that is not totally lined up politically. How do they think about themselves as being a church community that is here in our particular location, in our neighborhood communities, for the sake of the community that we're in? Because I think there's so much of what we understand and know, we've taken in as, well, this is me individual, but it's like, no, no, no, let's really think about us for the community, for the world.

Jeff: And that makes for messier churches, for sure. I mean, that's a messier kind of way to live. But I mean, that's sort of the aim of it is like, I feel like this is where God has positioned us and people have left our church in the past year too, because of some of those things too, but that's okay. I mean, they want to be a part of a thing that more aligns with what they agree with.I think people choose, unfortunately, this is a sad thing for me as a pastor.

Jeff: The other thing too, is I'm insecure enough that when people leave and they tell me like, "We just decided to leave the church community." I'm not like, "Oh my gosh, God bless you. That's so great." I mean, I say that out loud, but inside I'm like, "I never liked you anyways. Who invited you? And your kids are terrible also."

Emmoe: What was your name? See you.

Jeff: Yeah, exactly. I say, I speak all the right words of, "I don't own the people, God owns the people," but inside I'm like, I kind of own them a little, they're kind of mine. So there's obviously my own insecurity about that stuff, but none of this is going to be a surprise, but I think a lot of people choose a church that's more affirmation, this is going to sound so goofy now, more affirmation than transformation. Does this affirm everything I already believe? Or is this going to challenge me to wrestle with some stuff and to think about things? And this is a terrible way of answering your question, Tim, about 10000 Minutes. I'm not sure what I answered or what I even discussed.

Tim: Hey, everybody, this is Jeff McGuire.

Emmoe: Yes. 10,000 answers is Jeff McGuire.

Jeff: That is so true.

Tim: No, it's so good. I was just thinking, what did you say? You said more affirmation than transformation.

Jeff: Yeah. Like, I want to have my own beliefs affirmed, and if I want that, you can find that now and that's easy to find. And especially given that a lot of people have substituted... They've kind of gone, whoever's running a podcast is my pastor now, so I can just find the one that isn't challenging me and can make that my thing, that's my new church community, is wherever I... With the other podcast listeners becomes my thing.

Tim: So if we get even more basic on what is church, church is just, it's the assembly, it just doesn't have to be a 501, it can be anything. But what happens is when people go forget the gathering, the thing, it's like, I don't need that anymore. It's like, totally. That's great. But who are you actually being the church with?

Tim: But even thinking about this idea of more affirmation than transformation, the people that we hang with, there's a beauty in being with people that I don't fully agree with and walking in those places and being sharpened and challenged by those people, and still being the church.

Jeff: This is not news. I mean, the fact that we're basically being told on a pretty ongoing basis, a pretty steady diet of, you should not be with people who don't agree with you, those people, they should be shunned, pushed aside. They're a threat to you. It's not just they're a different opinion, now it's like that person is a threat. And to align with those people, even in some kind of conversation, is to put yourself your family... It's an unwise thing. I mean, all of that stuff. And so we say in our church, let's let the only obstacle between people and Jesus be Jesus.

Jeff: Whatever our role is, I don't want the church or its institutional kind of whatever it is or whatever else we've set up, to be a block between a person and Jesus. If people meet Jesus and they're like, he's not for me, well, I'm okay with that. Jesus was okay with that. But I just don't want us to create any artificial barriers between them.

Emmoe: I love what the church is doing [crosstalk 00:17:13]. I guess the gatherings. I love that they're welcoming people. But how are they going into spaces that are not just their safe place? [crosstalk 00:17:22]. Yeah. So sometimes I just think of, what about the people who are hurt by the church, but still want to be the big C, still want to participate in being the church to people? What does that look like? And what does it look like for redemption with the church?

Jeff: It's interesting, you're pointing to a pretty common, unfortunately, pain of people who are really seeking to be good and faithful followers of Jesus. Because I mean, my father-in-law was a person who, part of a big church and he was a executive guy, and he was like, "Well, you know what, I really feel like me and the guys that go and clean the bathrooms for this church, we were kind of this volunteer maintenance crew, and that was some of the best times in my life, the closest I've ever felt to Jesus." So, I mean, there's some part of that that's beautiful. I mean, where he's like, "This church isn't just serving my needs when I show up on the weekend, there's a part of me feeling like I'm a part of this for people who may never know that I'm here." That was sort of beautiful.

Jeff: So when the church is living at its best, the people on both ends of it, the community, the inside of the church community and people in the neighborhoods and the communities around it go, there's something there, there's something about that. And I may not agree with everything, but there was something truly beautiful and magnetic.

Jeff: So trying to get people to understand and think about their role as not just serving the fear-based community of insiders, but to think about what does an energized group of people look like who love their neighbors, who might also be their enemies? To do things without the expectation of return without, I did this and now you have to say yes to my event, or what whatever else, it's just like, God's given us these resources to serve the world and love the world.

Tim: I forget who said it, it could have been Willard that said, "What would your gatherings be like, what would the church be like, without the spirit and movement of God?" I was like, uh oh, gosh, I mean, we're just a great YMCA. I mean, for the most part. And so many of the contexts that I've been a part of, we could do all that, so much of it, without really Jesus or the spirit leading things and joining him and what he's doing. And that just stopped me a few years ago going, I don't want to keep doing that.

Tim: If the church are little Christs, little representers of Jesus everywhere, gathered and then scattered, that's pretty powerful. If it actually happened like that. So I think I'm just trying to figure out, and we're trying to figure out, what's it look like for us? And I guess you got to go back to, if you're representing him, you are his church. What does that truly look like in the 10000 Minutes? Because most people know us by our church name or affiliation.

Chris: I have a lot of thoughts over all of it, and I've been trying to think of how I can articulate it, because I think what a lot of you're talking about, it's like what church can be at its best. And I love that, and I see that in my wife, who didn't grow up in church, but represents church way better than I do, who have been in it since the day I was born.

Chris: When I look at her faith, I've had to unlearn so much to get to her basic starting point of loving people like Jesus loved them. I grew up, my parents were by vocation ministers. It was like a family church, really dysfunctional. I watched family members be someone on state, and then be horribly abusive, nasty people in real life. That turned into all kinds of craziness in adolescence.

Chris: My grandpa went to prison for 20 years for sexually molesting kids and all that stuff, who was a pastor of a church, like when all the Catholic priests and stuff. One day I wake up and his face is on the TV screen, and my brother put him there, which was really crazy. He was abusive to a lot of us grandkids and all of his kids, sorry, family for throwing this on a podcast. You're welcome. You know it by now.

Chris: But then he was maybe the first of now seven pastors or really influential ministry people that have had the same story. So I found myself being really close to people who have abused their roles in church in really incredible ways. Where I don't think everybody... I think my story's fairly unique in that. If you've been in church a long time, you've seen that in some regard. Maybe not sexual abuse or those type of things.

Chris: I've seen the very worst of church, whether it's that type of abuse or just straight up power tripping or we're making decisions based off of keeping our jobs and paying our bills more than loving people. And so I can see how the church and its establishment has honestly created a safe haven for abuse. I've seen it, I've lived it, I've been a part of it in some ways on both ends.

Chris: Really my whole professional life has been in the church world. I think I have trouble getting through my own damage of the institution, even though I know what the best of church could be.

Tim: Right. That's fair.

Chris: I think right now we talk about how church is supposed to be countercultural. A lot of times I look at culture and I say, gosh, you're more loving, you're more accepting, you're providing for people in ways that the church just hasn't. And this is a really blanket statement. There's some great churches. But historically I think if you were to ask an unbeliever about Christians or church, they would say, "They're kind of judgey."

Tim: A little. We might have that reputation.

Chris: I don't necessarily think it's for me, because I can find my ecclesial in these other groups that are accepting me, that are loving me. And that almost feels like we're still countercultural, but we're being jerks about it.

Jeff: In the worst way.

Chris: Yeah, in the worst way.

Tim: Anti-culture as opposed to counterculture.

Chris: So I see it through all of those lenses to the point where even in my own ministry I've stepped back and said, gosh, how can I manage this? How can I do this? This podcast has been really good to even express some of this stuff, because I can't talk about even some of the stuff I just said about my family on a stage, because it's so deep and it's so hurtful. There's so much stuff in it. It's not necessarily the church's fault, but there's just... It's so layered. But this is giving me a place to speak some truth into it and show it.

Chris: I've thought, do I just give up on it? Do I just walk away? At 16, when all this stuff happened for me, I was able to say, God, I realize that this is people and you and I are good. And that's really probably what's kept me having faith into 20 years later, that I was able to separate all that kind of stuff.

Chris: So now I've got to the same point. It's like, God, do I give up on it? And I read something the other day, even really recently, it said, no culture can be changed from outside of it. The only change that's ever happened within a culture has happened from within. And it was really a shot in the arm for me, no vax pun intended, but just to say, it's so cliche, but be the change that you want to see. Of you don't think the church is loving people well enough, then go love people and meet people where they are and accept people.

Chris: I think I go way deep in these kind of theology things and deconstruct and reconstruct and rearrange and rethink, and it really all brings me down to like, who is Jesus? What did he do? What did he say? How did he treat people? All this other stuff can fade away. And for me it comes back to, I think, what you're talking about, what the church can be at its best, which is a group of people in their community, loving, serving, putting other people ahead of themselves, being selfless in what they do, and I think, something that this podcast is teaching me, being awake.

Jeff: Well, my guess is there's probably a ton of listeners who would connect with your story, who are [crosstalk 00:25:30].

Chris: Maybe.

Jeff: Who are hanging on. I think God's good, but man, there's been some not just discomfort, but real soul wrenching life altering kind of hurt. That if all they listen to was your story about I'm still believing God's good despite some things, this will be a moment for some of those folks to go, I feel like God spoke to me when Chris was talking about... That was my story. I mean, I'm heartbroken for you and for your family and that the institution, in the sense, ate the people who are supposed to lead it and supposed to be cared for by it.

Chris: It happens so much, man.

Jeff: It does, and it is such a tragic thing. I remember, it was a South African woman, I think, wrote either a song or... I forget now, maybe it was a poem, but she was the one who-

Emmoe: Full circle.

Jeff: That really wasn't a joke. That's so funny.

Emmoe: Full circle. Robert Frost.

Jeff: She wrote... You know what, that's where we should have brought this to. She has the line that was, "What if we're the ones we're waiting for?" And I thought that's like, okay, we're waiting for someone to do something here. What if we're the ones we're waiting for? It's such an unbelievable posture to have based on what you're describing in your own experience of like, okay, so wait, what if I'm the one who's supposed to go, the church should do these things. Well, it's like, to your point, Tim, we're the... That's us.

Tim: That's us.

Jeff: Not the institution waiting for it to institute a program that my kids can all sign up for and get a t-shirt. That'd be great if they did that, but really we need to be looking at neighbors and going, what if we did this? I was just thinking about, there's a guy... Every church has these kind of stories.

Tim: Define church. [crosstalk 00:26:54].

Jeff: In every sense of the term. I mean, in every broadest possible sense. In the individual incarnation of people, in the communities of people that gather in home, to the people in their neighborhoods, to the institution itself, to all of that stuff, to the end dwelling of the Holy Spirit among people, the temple where God resides. Everything.

Jeff: And the reason why I say that is, I think, and every church has a... I can't say every church. I hope every church has at least one or two, but I'm imagining that they do. A guy in our church, I'm talking to him pre-pandemic. He comes to me in tears and he's like, "I found out I got cancer." I could see his wife walk away from me and she's been holding all of her pain in, he's got this cancer diagnosis and she starts to cry in the background and I pray with him and I'm hugging him and they're ready to leave, and I walk up to the wife and I gave her a hug and she just can't hold it together, and she starts crying.

Jeff: Then I find out months later, I didn't even really know about this, there's an institutional component and the outpouring of the organic piece where the guys in his Bible study were driving him from Orange County to downtown LA to get his treatment once a week. These guys were like, "We're taking you with us, we're going to go do this," and so they were driving through, LA traffic is notorious, and they were doing this once a week with this guy so he could go get his treatment and give his wife a rest.

Jeff: Just this past week, or maybe it was two weeks ago, he just came to me and was like, "I just got to tell you, that men's group saved me. And I just went back for my whatever test and it's undetectable. And so these guys are praying for me and bearing the load of this for me over the course of this time."

Jeff: One other guy came to me after church and just said, he lost his wife a year and a half ago, and he just goes... And I, of course, as a pastor, I get way too much credit for stuff I did not have anything to do with so, and he's, tears in his eyes, just goes, "Thank you so much for getting me through the most difficult years of my life, me and my son. I just can't thank you..." No, again, he's thanking me because he doesn't know who to thank. The church has been, in all of its forms, has been a place for him.

Jeff: And there's just stories of, I think I told you guys, there's a story of this one family in our church whose daughter is, she's limited to a wheelchair, is I think a sixth or seventh grader, and was just trying to find a way to be connected in a junior high group. How does she do this? And the way that youth ministry, the institution of this youth ministry and its organic outflow, was to embrace this girl and she... The mom wrote us the kindest email about... And the church had figured out ways to work out some ways to get her because we had to find new ways to get her into some of these buildings and stuff, we figured it out. And she wrote the most heartfelt email thanking our junior high staff, which really is just our junior high pastor, she's amazing, and some of her staff and volunteers, and then some of the student leadership, for just embracing her daughter in a way that nobody else had.

Jeff: In my mind, when you get back to the idea of countercultural, there's those elements that aren't the here's our banner of why we're countercultural. It's the subtlety and the personal and the way of being that I'm like, I can take zero credit for those things. It's just the church. When there's this assembled body of people who ends up going, well, you know what, that burden's our burden. We're going to share that. That's what we're supposed to do, so we're just going to take that on. And it's not because I did a teaching, here's the six happy steps to bearing each other's burdens, it was like they just saw this and thought, this is us.

Jeff: That age old question of, if the church was vaporized, the gathering was vaporized, who would care? Who would miss it? And if it's just the people who made the coffee and listened to the music, then we're a totally ineffective community. But if like the local schools, and the single moms who are raising a bunch of kids and are on their own, and the homeless in the community, or whatever else, if those people are like, "I really needed that community of people even though I never intended to part of it." That's a question I always wrestle with for our church community.

Jeff: When the church gets to do that, even in small ways, as a collective group of people, they really do feel it and they do get the sense. Just like generosity begets more generosity, when people get to be these kinds of things for the community, they actually want more, they want to be a part of more of it, because it feels meaningful. And the community wants more of it, then the church, it moves from being a club for itself to an extension of Jesus to a world that may never reciprocate. They may never give a dollar or they may never show up except when they have a need.

Jeff: Again, I just want to make sure I'm clear, this is not something we're crushing it at. We just nailed this. Please come and see us, do this, please understand. But the tiny glimpses and the moments where we do that, everybody looks at each other and goes, there's something to that. That was cool. We got to be a part of doing something bigger than ourselves that was really about Jesus in a way that feels true and rich.

Chris: For me, church, the thing that's kept me in it, especially as an adult with kids and stuff, because I battle with a lot of this stuff like, what am I going to actually teach my kids? And then I wind up diving into this real theological... They're asking me about Noah, and I'm like, well, actually... And I'm just like, okay, my four year old just needs to know that there were some animals on a boat and a flood and whatever, I don't need to get into the type of literature this is. But I can't not because it's what I was given.

Chris: Bu this idea of the incarnation of Christ, God becoming the things he loves, being in these other, in these people, this community, that's really what's kept me in it. Like this, friendships with people like you guys. Knowing that my kids are going to... I don't need another Jesus sermon, I need people to love me and my family. And it's more than social work, because we can handouts and do all this kind stuff. It's deeper than that. We're still doing that kind of work, but there's a connection because I think of that incarnation of Christ in us.

Chris: When we can look around and we can see Christ in all of the people and in their actions, we talk about blessing and the reciprocal nature of that, and it's like, we're going to find a way to get this girl into the youth services and connect her. We got this guy on his treatment. There's these really tangible ways where Christ works through us and where we're blessing and being blessed, and I think when we look at it, that's where the community of believers and this notion of communal faith and salvation and all these things, that's where I'm like, yeah, it wasn't meant just for me to hoard.

Chris: My personal Jesus got me through at 16, but I don't think that's... I'm not going to get that through listening to a podcast or through my Instagram feed, I'm only going to get that when I'm around people and seeing Christ in them and them in me, calling it out, blessing each other, living in community, disagreeing, and being okay sitting in those spaces. And at 36 living a life in church, just figuring it out.

Tim: As I think about the different people who are listening to this podcast, you've got people with great church hurt and then you've got some people who are like, no, I've actually loved my community, it hasn't jacked me up that much. I'm just trying to think of how to encourage each of those... Which, I brought you on Jeff, because you are a guy that could actually do and lead a group of people, because you actually are so intentional about everything that you do, that when you're talking about what the church could be, it actually could be, you actually might be able to join Jesus and do it beautifully.

Tim: I don't say that about a ton of places, so we get to hear that from you and it's actually a true thing from you, because you're so intentional about everything that you do. I love that there are people on here that are going, man, I don't want to be a part of an institution ever again, and just to hear hope that it could be done beautifully.

Jeff: Well to that point, I think the institution has been the veil for a ton of abuse, and I think there are times where I thought, if I'm ever leading a church community, we're getting rid of all the institutional, we're just going to get everything institutional. But I'm like, thankfully I'm never going to lead one, so it doesn't matter. I can say these things. [crosstalk 00:35:19]. Yeah, exactly.

Jeff: Mean, I remember being in church conversations in my twenties and it sounded like I was listening to some of these guys who were ranting about the church with reasonable hurt, I mean, for sure, and I was like, pretty soon it sounded like they wanted us to not have... The logical end was, we really shouldn't have a building at all. We should be meeting on a grass hill only. And if we do have a building, we should be sitting on the floor with no carpet in there. We should turn off the AC and we should use really... It's like all of a sudden it was like, what level of acceptable institutionalism are we going to give ourselves? Because there's obviously a line that we don't want to cross, which borders on extravagance or production, but what's the [crosstalk 00:35:57].

Jeff: We just sit in a dirt pile and say, this is us, and is that really the holiest thing, or now are we just being self righteous about our anti-institutionalism, which self righteousness is its own institution. [crosstalk 00:36:08] I told you guys the coffee would hit me right about now.

Chris: That's good.

Tim: I was thinking about the institution is a container for the organic movement of God. I was thinking about even the well idea, that institutions almost, in a beautiful way, it's like, well, here's a well right, and they're building up ways for the well water to actually-

Jeff: Yeah, there's some way. There's bucket that goes down a rope or whatever or something. Who needs more? We lower the bucket for you.

Tim: If the point remains the water and not the buckets-

Jeff: Or the stone shape around.

Tim: Structure, yes.

Jeff: Isn't this great? Look at the stone shape we built around this. There's water down there, but that doesn't matter, look at this. We also put some seating out here and some lighting.

Tim: We have a portico.

Jeff: Yeah, exactly.

Emmoe: Our sponsors [crosstalk 00:36:47].

Jeff: We have a place for your kids. Yeah, exactly. That's well said. I think that's exactly right. As long as the institution is serving the beautiful story. One of the things I told our staff is I was like, "You guys figure out ways to tell a beautiful story that tells the beautiful story and live that part of it." How do we help our people for this year rediscover a beautiful story. Whether it's a guy getting a ride to his cancer treatment, or a girl being welcomed into a junior high ministry. There's a beautiful story there that points to the beautiful story about the incarnation of Jesus in and through us, and the more we get around that idea... And I actually think that's a pretty magnetic experience and people are like, "Oh my gosh, this is truly fun."

Chris: That's why people are going to come. If you do that in the 10000 Minutes, I think that's the work of Jesus and Christ through us.

Tim: Yeah. It's the whole point of this thing is that we do this stuff. The problem is when church stops doing stuff with Jesus and doing it for him. The institution, or me even, just as the church walking. I mean, every time I do it for him, it just becomes the thing. Doing it with him, that's the actual incarnation. I am a mini Jesus representing his heart.

Jeff: Yeah, that's well said.

Tim: Is what I've said many times. I don't want my kids thinking that they go to church. I really don't. I just think it's actually ruining my kids if they feel like they go to church. But if they are the church, then gather, it's such a semantic cluster.

Tim: So literally this conversation went on for another hour, but this last part is a perfect wrap up for this part of our conversation. Check it out.

Jeff: A significant piece of our identity isn't just facilitating this weekend experience. We talk about the whole Gospel, John Scott's version of the whole Gospel for the whole world, not just, let's get people to say a prayer to go to Heaven when they die. It's not if we die tomorrow, what if we live tomorrow? What if we live another 40 years? What does it look like to live that out in the here and now for the sake of the world in the community and beyond?

Tim: Not what if we die tomorrow, but what you and I live tomorrow? What's that look like to live with Jesus?

Jeff: Our end goal isn't just to have people say a prayer, it's to live a life, to use your word, so clearly with Jesus, as much as they know how, and to struggle with that and to wrestle with that and to feel like, I don't know if I'm doing this with him. I want that wrestling. So that's the goal.

Tim: So good.

Jeff: And again, please, hear me, it is, we shoot an air ball [crosstalk 00:39:15] four out of five times.

Tim: Jeff says all the time, we do this perfect. We've got a few people about to walk in that are... I love that both you guys look.

Emmoe: You always look at the door, and I'm like, "Who is here?"

Chris: I did, I was like, "Who's here?"

Tim: There's some people who are really angry with Jeff's ministry.

Jeff: Trust me, I can show you some emails. They're not happy.

Chris: [crosstalk 00:39:35] comment cards.

Jeff: Trust me,

Chris: Timtimmons@gmail, G-M-A-I-L, .com.

Jeff: You can email Jeff McGuire at timtimmons@gmail.com.

Tim: Thank you, Jeff.

Jeff: You guys, so honored. Like I said, I finished my coffee in the first 10 minutes, then about 25 minutes in it was like, here I go.

Tim: [crosstalk 00:39:53] I like it.

Jeff: I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Thank you.

Emmoe: Love it.

Jeff: Well, we're about to make fun of you, so gey ready.

Tim: That's fair. Okay, everybody. Jeff, welcome back.

Jeff: Hey, thank you for that extended break. I feel refreshed. Thank you. That sandwich was incredible too, by the way. Thank you. It was delicious.

Tim: We did have Patrick early on.

Emmoe: I was just thinking.

Tim: We called it a snack break [crosstalk 00:40:14] like that.

Emmoe: We only did it once, but then he was like, "I didn't get a snack."

Tim: We had a snack break and he was super pissed. He just kept going, "Just so we all know, you guys, I did not get a snack break." I mean, he was really trying to make-

Emmoe: So yeah, we went back to the board and we're like, we can't do snack breaks. We don't have the budget. We can't do snacks.

Jeff: That's fair.

Tim: That's that was about 40 seconds-

Chris: But if you'd like to donate to 10000 Minutes, so we can provide snacks to our guests.

Jeff: Yes, please. That's harborpoint.church. That's the name of it.

Tim: No, I'll give you my real email for that. This is 10000 Thoughts with Jeff McGuire. AKA Steve Johnson.

Jeff: This is rapid fire. I don't even know what I'm walking into.

Tim: You sure don't.

Jeff: This is a buzzsaw of minutes here.

Tim: I'm just going to say if you words and things and you just give me the first thing that comes to your mind.

Jeff: Okay.

Tim: You nervous?

Jeff: Yeah.

Tim: That's the first word. Nervous.

Emmoe: Sweet.

Jeff: Anxious. Sweaty.

Emmoe: Already winning.

Tim: Loud chewing.

Jeff: I'm plotting your death.

Chris: You don't even need elaborate, that's perfect as is.

Emmoe: [crosstalk 00:41:17] Jeff.

Jeff: My son, and this is a total log and spec, total hypocrisy, I'm sure I'm a loud chewer, but one of my sons, I'm like, "I dare you to open your mouth again. Chew that next to me. I'm secretly plotting your death as we speak." And there you go.

Tim: What will you never do?

Jeff: I will never...

Tim: Once again, this is a speed round.

Jeff: The first one was easy. What will I never do? I'll probably never actually kill my son for chewing out loud. I'm going to say with a high degree of confidence, I won't kill him. I'll just think about it.

Emmoe: Listeners were at the edge of their seat, so I'm so happy you clarified.

Jeff: Yeah, well, there you go. Next question.

Tim: Radical.

Jeff: Here's a word that I just feel like only a small portion of people would even know what this word is, and that word is spelled S-C-H-R-A-L-P. That word is schralp. Schralp, as in Schralp [crosstalk 00:42:17]

Tim: Yes, that's the California [crosstalk 00:42:19]?

Jeff: It's a dead word that I say mainly to embarrass my kids, because it's almost meaningless unless you're in a small span of people roughly our age who grew up around surf culture. [crosstalk 00:42:30].

Tim: So you hear radical, you think of-

Chris: It's like a cowabunga? What is this? Like hang ten?

Emmoe: Tubular?

Chris: We're going to go like Ninja Turtles?

Emmoe: Righteous.

Tim: Schralp.

Jeff: I think it's so niche, I don't even think the Ninja Turtles knew about that word. You can imagine the sound a board would make snapping on a wave. Schralp.

Tim: There you go.

Chris: I could hear it.

Jeff: Are you with me?

Chris: I'm with you.

Emmoe: No, not really.

Tim: It's so true. There are a few people that are smiling right now, everybody else is going, "Idiots."

Chris: Just you two, because you made the word up while you were surfing at some point.

Tim: No, no, no, that is not-

Emmoe: Did someone whisper schralp? Is that how that got in there?

Tim: Pop Rocks.

Jeff: Pop Rocks. Coca-Cola.

Chris: Sounds like schralp too, in your mouth.

Emmoe: Schralp 2.0.

Jeff: You guys have to figure out how to use that in some way? Dude, schralp. Who schralped in here? Light a candle.

Tim: Who schralped in here. That's funny. Describe yourself in three words.

Emmoe: Out loud.

Jeff: You guys didn't catch that? I was trying to do that with... This isn't radio telepathy kind of thing? We don't do that here? [crosstalk 00:43:33].

Emmoe: The listeners want to know too.

Jeff: I don't know if they want to know. I am...

Tim: I am Jeff.

Jeff: I am Jeff.

Emmoe: Life hack.

Jeff: I don't mean to blow anybody away with that kind of answer. Is that acceptable? Can I leave [crosstalk 00:43:49]?

Tim: What's the thing you're most afraid of?

Jeff: Seeming incompetent.

Chris: I love everybody gets one deep one.

Jeff: Well, I don't mind being incompetent, I just don't want to seem that way. I don't want people to be like, "I think he kind of knew what he was saying. He had a little bit of coffee or something." But seeming incompetent.

Tim: What about something just in the world, like spiders?

Jeff: I am disproportionately afraid of scorpions.

Tim: Really?

Jeff: Yeah.

Chris: Have you ever seen one?

Jeff: I heard a story. We took a bunch of students when I was a high school pastor to go to Mexico to do a bunch of stuff like work there building houses and stuff, which I don't even know if that was the greatest work we could be doing. That's another conversation. [crosstalk 00:44:25].

Tim: Jeff and I did that as kids.

Jeff: True. Right. And you're welcome Mexico. There you go. [crosstalk 00:44:31]. But they did-

Chris: I don't trust you to mow my lawn, but go build these people a house.

Jeff: Yeah. Your kids should play on the roof a lot. That's pretty much that. But someone [crosstalk 00:44:40].

Tim: Your kids should play on the roof.

Jeff: Someone said, "Hey, when you get up in the morning, you want to make sure you dump your shoes out because there could be... A scorpion will crawl in there and then when you put your feet in the morning this evil Satan claw thing." So every morning my shoes are off and I'm shaking then and looking in there like, it's going to land on my eye. I'm stepping on the toes of the shoes. Scorpions.

Tim: Scorpions.

Jeff: And incompetence. My own incompetence. They're one in the same. My incompetence has a name and it is scorpion. There you go.

Tim: Nickname, speaking of. Schralp is one.

Jeff: Schralp. Nickname, Steven Johnson, Steve Johnson. To all the Steve Johnson's out there, which there are a bunch, I just want to say, I adopt you as my tribe. I don't know if that's possible. You know when I was in seventh grade, I got called lanky because I was super buff. I was all built out, kind of a stud, that's why they called me lanky, I think.

Emmoe: It was a tall joke.

Jeff: But they-

Chris: Get some height on you. What are you, like 6'3"?

Jeff: Yeah. I was a late bloomer, so I was always tallish, but skinny dude, and so I got lanky, which my coaches, who were at the time they were college guys, that just somehow morphed into lankomasaurus, which then got reduced back down to just lank him up. I would be yelled at on the field. "Lanky, lank him up. Get in there." All that kind of stuff. I guess I'm lanky. Whatever.

Tim: Buddy.

Emmoe: They're calling me.

Chris: You got the Phoebe run.

Tim: Thanks for sharing that.

Jeff: All of us have had... The institution has been hurtful for a lot of us.

Tim: So you were lanky and I was called fatty at about the same time.

Jeff: You know what, it's like our own Laurel and Hardy... We were buddies.

Tim: It was meant to be.

Jeff: That reminds me of a song. (Singing).

Tim: Pet peeve.

Jeff: Other than the sound of people chewing?

Tim: Yes.

Jeff: I do not like when people misuse the word disinterested.

Chris: How can you misuse it?

Jeff: Because people use it synonymously with uninterested, and it's not what that means. It means unbiased. I'm always like, that's not how you're supposed to use that word. Which is the most arrogant, self conceited.

Chris: So, disinterested means to be unbiased?

Jeff: Unbiased. Yeah, I'm a disinterested party. Not uninterested.

Chris: I get it.

Jeff: I don't know why that bothers me so much.

Tim: No, it's great.

Jeff: I feel almost more... Now the new thing I'm afraid of is being embarrassed about saying that stupid thing.

Tim: Because that'll make you...

Jeff: Well, to masking my own incompetence. Like, see, I know things about words. It's lame. Why am I here? Why are you guys here?

Tim: Hey, Jeff. Hey, Steve.

Jeff: [crosstalk 00:47:18] you got decaf?

Tim: Most embarrassing moment.

Jeff: Most embarrassing moment. I remember, well, I don't know if this is my most embarrassing moment, it's one that is cemented in my brain. My buddy and I, whom you know, when we were freshman in high school, I went to this Catholic high school, uniforms every day, and we had decided, as freshmen, when it became time for Halloween, we were going to dress up and they were letting us dress up, and it was like, you could do whatever you wanted. And so we were like, we're going to own this school. We're 14 years old, it's pretty much time to just dominate.

Tim: You sound like Chris.

Jeff: So we decided... Yeah, exactly. This was a perfect example of when overstated confidence has disastrous consequences.

Chris: Which happens most times.

Jeff: Sure. I mean, that is the oldest story ever. I mean, someone thought they were so awesome and then... So my buddy and I, we decided to go as our own made up superheroes. Turns out we got one of our superhero names from, we didn't know this at the time, from Elton John, which also has its own complications. So it was Captain Fantastic, which was me, Captain Fantastic, and then his sidekick, Bob. And these were made up superheroes obviously.

Emmoe: He got Bob.

Jeff: And my buddy-

Tim: Bob.

Emmoe: Was this really a friendship?

Jeff: My buddy was this goofier guy, and he was awesome and he was so funny. I had this big, long flowy Cape and his was about the size of a dinner towel.

Emmoe: Again, I ask, Bob, if you're out there, are you okay? Please let us know.

Jeff: His name's Jason. He's an elder, I think, at his own church. I mean, so he's part of the leadership of his own church community. Which is so great. So we both wore these shirts that were too small. So I'm lanky, he was buff, and so he was filling his out, but I was like... There's plenty of room in the sleeves, let's just say. And we decided, all of us, were like, you know what, superheroes, they wear tights with their underwear on the outside. That's what they do. And so we went to, then it was a chain, I don't even think they had it out here, it was called Mervins, and Mervins-

Tim: Oh yeah.

Jeff: You remember Mervins?

Tim: Oh yeah.

Jeff: So Mervins, all right, my brother. So we go to Mervins and we don't know how to buy tights, we just go to the panty hose section. So we buy black panty hose to wear our underwear over, and then we're wearing... So we show up and we're like, this is so awesome. The whole suit, these small shirts, cape the underwear on the outside, whatever, we go to show up at the school, and my buddy Jason's mom is driving us there, and right about... The drive was far to our school, it was probably 25 minutes or so. So 20 minutes in we're like, "This is going to be legendary. They're going to be talking about this."

Tim: Schralp.

Jeff: Totally. Not the correct use of the term, but yes. I like the spirit.

Emmoe: Dang it, well, I'm disinterested.

Jeff: I'm biased. As soon as we pull in the parking lot, it just hits me like a wave. Nobody here thinks we're cool. We only knew each other at the school, and the school was small enough that where there was [crosstalk 00:50:12].

Chris: [crosstalk 00:50:12] commingle grades.

Jeff: Oh dude, it was so bad. We had to then figure out... There are two different lunch periods, we did not have the same lunch, so we're by ourselves.

Emmoe: Poor Bob.

Chris: And it only works as a duo, if it works.

Jeff: True. Which, there's a redemption to this story in a minute. But I get out of the car and I realize I'm going to be walking around the campus as lanky as all get out with my underwear hanging out there. And I'm like, this is a terrible... I mean the wave of pain [crosstalk 00:50:45] and the looking we got from people right away was not... It was not admiration. It wasn't like, you guys rock. It was like, this is the dumbest thing anybody's ever done and we're witnessing this.

Jeff: I was just... I mean, all day, the things that I got called I cannot say on this podcast, by people. I remember looking over at a guy who was like a junior, and I was like, "Hey, man," and he just launched into me about how, don't ever talk to me, and lots of other words you guys can imagine, and I was like, this was the world's worst decision ever made.

Jeff: It wasn't the most embarrassing moment. It was the most embarrassing sequence of a day. It just prolonged... I mean, my life was shortened in that moment. And then of course as seniors, we were like, "We're bringing this back." Because then we wee seniors. It was like, "Deal with us. We're so cool. Look at us. We're hilarious."

Chris: What was the redemption? You said there was a redemption.

Jeff: That was the redemption. It was awesome them, as a senior, we were like, "This is rad."

Emmoe: I mean, I don't want to compare pain, but you were walking around as Captain Fantastic by yourself. Your friend was walking around as Bob, by himself. [crosstalk 00:51:47] this man had changed his name ane had tight fitting clothes.

Jeff: Sitting in geometry like... Not just tight fitting clothes, women's panty hose.

Tim: Panty hose. It's panty hose. It's not like-

Emmoe: I feel like Bob's the victim, man.

Jeff: He might be, but he could pull it off better than I could. I definitely needed a... I needed a guy [crosstalk 00:52:09] sidekick. There was no way I could pull this off on my own.

Tim: Well, Captain Fantastic, we just want to say thank you so much.

Emmoe: Fore your service, yes.

Jeff: The world is probably a better place because of that moment.

Tim: And Bon, well, sucks for you. [crosstalk 00:52:23]. He's working through some pain.

Tim: Well it was a wonderful break and again we're back. Snack break.

Emmoe: Again, no snacks. No snacks.

Tim: And because Jeff McGuire lives in the Californias, by the way, everybody calls it Cali here.

Jeff: You can tell someone's not from California when they call it Cali.

Tim: Just so everybody knows, when you say, "Oh, you're from Cali," [crosstalk 00:52:45].

Chris: It's like Nash Vegas.

Emmoe: Lord, yes.

Jeff: That's funny.

Tim: Yeah, it's that same, "Oh, you live in Nash Vegas?" You're not from here. But everyone says Cali.

Jeff: If you visit, don't say, "It's so nice to be Cali," if you want to try to blend in a bit. Go for he full thing, California.

Tim: Just say California or say the town.

Jeff: What do you mean? [crosstalk 00:53:00].

Chris: What's the difference between Cali and the OC? Because I feel like the OC is just as bad as Cali.

Jeff: I don't know that we refer to it as the OC [crosstalk 00:53:08].

Tim: I do that as a joke, I think.

Chris: I just wanted to make sure. [crosstalk 00:53:12] was hinging on it a little, but it's fine now that I know.

Tim: I mean, I've always looked down at you every time you've said that to me.

Chris: Well, I think you gave me a shorter chair.

Tim: Yes I did. I did. I did. I gave you the one that squeaks, literally [crosstalk 00:53:26].

Emmoe: That's why he bought the album.

Tim: Well, speaking of albums and keeping up, that person walking... I got you guys again.

Emmoe: I'm literally running today just to blow off steam.

Tim: Just everybody knows, this is a new thing. It just keeps happening, and it makes my heart-

Chris: I just said a really bad word [inaudible 00:53:40]. You're going to have to cut that. It was low but somebody [crosstalk 00:53:49].

Tim: Low but detectable.

Emmoe: But God knew. God knew.

Chris: God knew.

Emmoe: He heard it.

Tim: I'm always doing stupid bits, and one of them is I just pretend like there's somebody coming in the room that's coming in for the [inaudible 00:54:02] or that, oh, well we're going to bring Jennifer in, because you've really hurt her feelings, or making fun of Jeff or whatever. Anyways, the point is I always point at the door and these two nerds always look. And I would too. It just has now become a funny bit.

Tim: Anywho, we've got Chris Cleveland.

Chris: Hey guys.

Tim: We've got a Emmoe Doniz.

Emmoe: That's me.

Tim: We've got the Jeff McGuire/Steven Johnson.

Jeff: Hey, everybody.

Tim: Captain Fantastic, we've got our first question for you.

Emmoe: Yes.

Tim: No. So this next week, so we're in... Just our little series is on rethinking words, so we've been rethinking the word blessed and now we're rethinking the word church. This week, it's rethinking the idea of being the church online, which in this past season has been a whole different ballgame. So it's being representers of Jesus to this world, little Jesuses, if you will. Online. What's that look like, to represent Jesus online, to be the church, his extension?

Chris: We're not talking about my church had to livestream this week.

Tim: I mean we could. I don't know.

Chris: We're talking about, how can we be Christ presenters in our online presence?

Tim: Our last season has been crazy, with two Ss.

Emmoe: Crazy.

Tim: I mean, if you think about all the things that have happened in this past-

Jeff: Seasons.

Emmoe: That got me so good Steven Johnson, Taylor, whatever your names are. That was so good.

Tim: In this past bit of time... Here's the bit for this everybody. [crosstalk 00:55:39]. Somebody recently said that they're not a Jesus follower at all, but they're married to a Jesus follower and they were having a great conversation with Susie Lynn on the Journey Now podcast, and she was asking them questions about like, what do you see with all these Christian people, these Jesus people? What do you see? And he's like, "Well, Christians, we use the word season all the time."

Jeff: Yes, that's right.

Tim: Ever since that I'm like, crap, I don't want to say [crosstalk 00:56:05].

Chris: It's the worst one.

Tim: I'm the king of it, so I'm trying to say in this past, and I almost said season, and then Jeff said season, which then made Emmoe laugh.

Emmoe: He added an S to it. Well he added an S to the-

Jeff: You said there were two Ss and I said seasons.

Emmoe: So he added it to season and it was just genius.

Jeff: Thank you.

Tim: In this past little bit of time, classified amount of time, it's been a wild season. We've lost friends in this past journey, season, shoot.

Jeff: It's impossible, just go with it. It's fine. It's a thing.

Tim: We've lost friends in this past bit of time because we either said something online or somebody else keeps saying, "I hate these people. I would never want to be these people." And it's like, "Well, you just ate with one, I guess." Apparently I'm now your enemy.

Jeff: It's just been such a crazy wild journey through the internet, and try to figure out how do we actually represent Jesus and walk with Jesus in our online presence and be the church. How do we actually help people? So serving people is not just tangibly going and taking somebody to the doctor, but I think there's a new world where we actually get to be the church online. I'll just ask this, how's the church showing up online? So that's the practice for this week. I mean, who knows what that looks like for all of us, but I think there's [crosstalk 00:57:28]. I should sign it for Facebook. I should get a Facebook account. Is that what I should do?

Chris: Then just start trolling people, I think, is the first step [crosstalk 00:57:35].

Tim: Is that a real troll? Is that som sort of-

Chris: They're like the little dolls with the colored hair.

Jeff: When you speak of those creatures that underneath the bridges.

Emmoe: The colored hair, yeah.

Tim: Okay, well, that's-

Chris: I think Justin Timberlake did some stuff.

Tim: A movie, the Trolls. Yes.

Chris: Season. Troll memes.

Tim: Yeah, I can do that.

Chris: My wife used to call it me mes. Let's end this podcast.

Tim: On a high not like that.

Emmoe: Crying.

Tim: Okay guys. Well, do good. [crosstalk 00:58:00]. Do good. Thank you, Jeff [crosstalk 00:58:02]. Well, we are disinterested in you and your attitude. [crosstalk 00:58:08]. Troll on, you guys.

Jeff: (Singing).

Emmoe: No.

Chris: Yes, full circle baby.

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