011: Be The Church

This week, Mackenzie and Chris Cleveland share the ways marriage invites them to lead with grace, let go of resentment and see each other as humans in process. When you hear the word church, what comes to mind? Do you see a building, the institution, or a certain group of people?

Join us as we begin to RETHINK church.

This week’s Practice:

Be The Church

+ 011 Be The Church - Mackenzie Cleveland Transcript

Tim: Well, Hey everybody. Welcome to the next 10,000 Minutes Experiment. And to my right is Emmoe Doniz.

Emmoe: Hello.

Tim: Chris Cleveland over there to the left.

Chris: Hey guys.

Tim: And then to my, gosh, I can't say hot left because you're not my wife, but you're Chris wife. I mean super hot. It just feels weird to be saying this.

Mackenzie: Now it's weird, now it's weird.

Tim: It's warm in this room. I think you're really pretty.

Mackenzie: In a brotherly way.

Tim: I love your shoes, your shoes are so pretty.

Chris: This is going well.

Tim: Chris, you want to introduce your wife?

Chris: Yeah. She's better than me in basically all facets of life. She's nicer. She's got a better outlook, she's prettier than I am. She also gave me three kids that are pretty great, most times. I'm glad she's here. I'm a little nervous.

Mackenzie: Do I have a name?

Chris: Her name is McKenzie k Cleveland, used to be a Shorb, but I changed that.

Tim: Oh, what do you mean it used to be a shore?

Mackenzie: Shorb, it's my middle name.

Chris: [crosstalk 00:00:57] Maiden name.

Tim: Shorb with a B, used to be a shore, that's what I heard but-

Chris: Well, that's how I talk. I've realized in this podcast I don't don't say any word correctly or the full word, I mumble through half of every word, Shorb, yeah.

Tim: Well welcome.

Mackenzie: Thanks guys.

Tim: We are looking forward to a lot of dirt.

Mackenzie: Oh yeah. I've got it ready.

Tim: She texted me last night with just a lot of really inappropriate things about Chris. I felt like that was powerful.

Chris: Mostly photos?

Tim: No, no.

Mackenzie: This is a podcast.

Tim: So I can't those.

Chris: I thought you would describe them.

Tim: No, no, no, it wasn't that. It was just her describing your dumbness and it was quite easy though. Okay, so, and I had my wife on last week, obviously. So I had extensive notes for her afterwards. So I had just, I was like, "Hillary, when you said this, I felt like you were," I really gave her some great notes.

Chris: Just feedback.

Mackenzie: Did she throw them in the trash?

Tim: Oh, she loved it. She was, "Oh Tim, more feedback, more feedback."

Mackenzie: Yeah, sure. Yeah, that's just, I mean, how marriage goes.

Tim: Yeah. Yeah, and she loves that, she loves that. Anyways, we haven't made out this week, which is weird yet, but Chris, I know you've got your pen out and you're ready to take some notes.

Chris: You know what? I really look up to you in a lot of ways.

Tim: And that's not one of them.

Chris: That's not one of them.

Tim: Hey everybody, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. And my hope is that this show is making you laugh and feeding your soul. And if you'd consider actually giving to this podcast, it's tax deductible, you can give monthly or one time and you can go to 10000minutes.com. So would you consider rating or commenting or even sharing this show with some of your friends? And if this show's not for you, no problem. There are a million other awesome podcasts to go check out so please do that. I know I'm not supposed to really read the negative comments, but I got one negative comment and they just said it was a little too edgy for them. That's wonderful. And we're not trying to be edgy for edgy sake, but real honest and curious about how to join Jesus in our everyday lives. And really that it would feel like we're just on a walk together trying to figure it out. Thanks you guys. I Hope you enjoy. Okay, so the practice, the experiment this week was to lead with grace and giving people the benefit of the doubt, our expectations of other people.

Chris: Kenzie's already laughing so hard.

Tim: Gosh, this is so great.

Mackenzie: Because you guys, I have the perfect example of Chris not doing this.

Chris: I know what she's going to talk about already.

Mackenzie: So last night we took the kids to the pool because it opened Friday so every 30 minutes they've asked me, can we go to the pool, so last night we finally did it and there's always this thing I will do in my head whenever I'm managing multiple tasks and I'll know, okay, well, if I don't do that right now, I can hear Chris's response in my head.

Tim: Yeah, he's extensive notes.

Mackenzie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris: They're not extensive normal.

Mackenzie: Oh no, no, no. It's usually just a few words. And so I was carrying everything in, there's a huge pile of towels on the ground and I just stepped over them. So I could go set everything on the counter, come back and grab them. And I barely even made it to the counter. And I just hear Chris, "Really?" And I'd already had that I knew he was going-

Tim: His expectations of you.

Mackenzie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim: It's just going to be the best podcast ever [crosstalk 00:04:13]

Chris: Oh no.

Mackenzie: It is yeah, it's just, it's going to be great. But thankfully, we've grown so much in our marriage-

Chris: To be fair that wasn't the end of the day, it didn't ruin our day.

Mackenzie: Oh no, no, no, no. At this point, I was about to say, we've worked through enough stuff in our marriage that it doesn't become a thing. I can laugh now and tell him, "Dude, I know you so well. I knew that's exactly what you were going to say. I already know you are just expecting me to leave this pile on the floor and move on." I've got him down packed. But I still choose to ignore the pile of towels anyways so if that tells you anything-

Tim: So in that moment you were able to lead with grace. I mean, you didn't go to, you were personally affronted, how does that work? What would you normally have done?

Mackenzie: So probably even before kids and a lot of therapy, I would've been so offended and so upset and taken it very personally and he would've as well I think.

Chris: I would've received the same, yeah, for sure.

Mackenzie: Yes. And if I would've told him even brought up to him that I knew he was going to say that and tried to even tell him that I expected that response from him, he would've taken it extremely critically, but yeah, I think because now we communicate better that we can say those things to each other and just laugh about it because we know what bothers each other. And we know each [crosstalk 00:05:40]

Tim: Is that where you went?

Chris: I think so, ish, basically.

Mackenzie: I mean, we pretty much just laughed it off.

Chris: I think I said, was that the exact word that you expected me to say or I wanted to see how close she was-

Mackenzie: That's it, he wants to know how right I was before because then because then he can kind of push, it's a little pushback, she doesn't know exactly.

Chris: Yeah. She knows me too well, better than I know myself most days.

Mackenzie: But I think that's just kind of Chris's default.

Tim: Which is?

Chris: Being, oh, I can't say that, being not nice.

Mackenzie: Well, just the assumption and then coming to the realization later, oh, okay.

Tim: Okay. So Chris, what was your expectation of her?

Chris: Oh, I guess to pick up the towels that were laying half in the garage, half in the house, keeping the door from being closed. Although I think we had just had a conversation too because I was rage organizing the garage because I don't care if things are clean. I just care if they're organized. So I won't dust, but I'll set everything where they need to go. You know what I mean? And I've just come to grips with that's who I am, 36 years old. I'm not going to dust. It's just not the thing.

Mackenzie: And I have not come to grip with that [crosstalk 00:06:55] no, I haven't.

Chris: No. I think she had just said something to the effect of, I wish you-

Mackenzie: I wish you had rage to clean the house, instead of rage organize the garage.

Chris: Which I took as, hey, this is fine. I'm just not going to and then I turn around and I see all the towels sitting there and I'm like, "You can't even shut the door. What is this? What is happening?" But then I was, "I guess I could pick up the towels." Which I think I did.

Mackenzie: You did, yeah.

Tim: I mean, there are expectations on both sides.

Chris: Yeah, but also we've found some grace pretty quickly.

Mackenzie: Yeah. I mean, I think if you choose to get married or have kids that you just maybe not learn quickly, but eventually you learn, I mean, you don't really get to have expectations. I mean you do, but you know they're not going to be, you just have to come to grips with they're more than likely not going to be met because they're about you and you have how many other people that you can't control and so-

Tim: Gosh, I can't wait to learn that lesson.

Mackenzie: Yeah, it takes, I mean, listen.

Chris: I mean, me too.

Tim: I can't wait to learn that lesson.

Mackenzie: Yeah, yeah, it's nearly impossible.

Chris: And if we can do that over towels, imagine what happens to serious things, that's pretty much our relationship

Mackenzie: It's gotten much better.

Chris: It actually has.

Tim: And were some of your main issues over this stuff, do you think?

Mackenzie: Oh, for me, for sure. Because growing up, I didn't like conflict. I'm an introvert, a nine. I don't like to ruffle whatever. I couldn't vocalize expectations in any way. So I would just, and then going into relationships and marriage, I definitely couldn't vocalize expectations to him and I mean, it affects everything. It affects communication. It affects just how you fight, how you discuss things and so, but we've gotten a lot better. I don't know that he necessarily-

Chris: Has gotten better?

Mackenzie: No [crosstalk 00:08:54] I mean, I am great at it now but he's just really struggling. So no, I don't know that as humans, I don't think that we know that our expectations aren't met until it happens. And so I think that's on more of the side where Chris leans, don't you think?

Tim: Not aware of the expectations.

Mackenzie: Whereas I've become a little bit more aware of them just because it's, I've been this way for so long and I've come to understand myself-

Chris: It took me a long time to see beyond myself. I was just probably way more selfish of a person than I thought I was or was even aware that I was. So I think there's something to that.

Mackenzie: Well, and I think once the thing has happened, then you're able to see it and see why.

Chris: So now for the towel, I can see when you say that I'm, "Oh yeah, don't be a jerk. That was a stupid thing to say. Sorry." I can see it in the moment, still doesn't mean, I'm not going to say, "Really?" Still haven't gotten to pre really yet, yeah, but at least I can catch it 30 seconds in yeah.

Tim: 30 seconds after?

Chris: Yeah, that's right.

Mackenzie: Listen, I'll take it guys. I'll take it, all day.

Tim: Yeah. Well, humor's such... I mean Hill and I always talk about that. I think we even talked about that last week that if we have humor somewhere in there, then we can probably make it through that stuff. But if not, and that's what we talked about last week, our expectations of other people is actually me losing presence in the moment and awareness of who that person is, giving them the benefit of the doubt. I mean, that happened with me a bunch this week. And I was, I don't know if God's actually doing that, it was almost, okay, why does this crap keep coming up? This is a hard week. And I'm thinking, ah, it's exactly what we're practicing. So maybe it's just me being more aware of it this week.

Tim: But my expectations of others, gosh, it is so heavy in me. And I've these three weeks has just revealed so much of that in me that I just, I knew was there, but it's kind of what you just said, McKenzie, that we don't really know it until it's there and I guess I'm just more aware of it than I ever have been. Not in the lame way of, Tim, you suck. But yeah, there's just a lot there for me to start working through and saying, what do I actually believe to be true about God on the bottom of this, with my expectations of him or of other people or of myself. Gosh, there's a lot of learning that I'm doing right now. Okay, the line expectations are premeditated resentments. That just keeps rocking my world. Expectations can be premeditated resentments.

Tim: So how do we do with resentment? Are there things that you guys hold as resentments? I totally do. And I talked about it last week. Most of them are with my wife or with my kids that I really hold resentments. I mean, there's even something this week that I was bummed about that I've asked my wife to do and just hasn't happened and it's French kissing, I'm just kidding. And it's something that just, and she knows it, we've talked about many times and it just becomes this deep resentment in me that I don't even know is happening. But then when I peel back that resentment, it's really there's an expectation on the bottom end of it that might even be fair of a hope, something that hope, but the expectation is when it starts to get dangerous, because then it's not being met, which leads me to this premeditated resentment.

Tim: So I was just thinking for you guys. And so I was trying to this week I was going, okay, lead with grace. And for me leading with grace was, okay, so what all is going on in her world? And it was really, I mean, Carlos said it a few weeks ago. He was talking about how if we could just all stop and pay attention to the person who's in front of us and really understand their story, things would change. And so this week there were moments that I was just feeling resentment coming on and I would think, okay, gosh, that girl is doing so much. She has so much on her plate. And that's when McKenzie called me about the towels. She's, "Chris, did not see that I've been working my butt off all."

Mackenzie: Get me on the podcast ASAP. I got to talk about these towels.

Tim: Yes, yes. We weren't even going to do it today, you guys but Mackenzie asked, she was, "Chris is being such a D." A doctor.

Chris: Downright, great dad.

Emmoe: Yeah, the best.

Mackenzie: Yeah, that in the pocket. Wow. He was ready, one card.

Tim: Let's just called the best from now.

Emmoe: The best.

Tim: Yeah, okay. So resentments, go, who holds those things with other people?

Mackenzie: I mean, thankfully before the pandemic, we had a good chunk of time, but when we moved here, he had six months where he took it completely off, was home because I'm sure as you know, as someone who is travels a lot and isn't at home and you're in a different rhythm, you have a different routine when that person is at home it disrupts that and it's you have to get used to that and it changes a lot. And so thankfully this last year really wasn't as hard as I think probably a lot of people that were in the same situation as we were, but I did find myself putting expectations on him and expecting things just for things to kind of be different around the house or whatever when it comes to tasks and I became very resentful. And then I finally had to stop, which I don't even know that we've talked about any of this.

Chris: I don't think so, learning.

Mackenzie: Yeah. But I finally had to just stop and decide what my role was in that and what my role was in the resentment, what my role was in the expectations, how I handled it, how I was confronting him with it, if I was at all. And it really it led me to grace for him and for myself and to say things aren't easy right now, things aren't easy with him right now, this doesn't have to be something that just completely explodes. Not every unmet expectation has to explode and be a life ruining or feel that way. Because I'm going through it by myself essentially and then you try to bring someone else in who hasn't been, they have not been walking along with you, in that, in those phases, in the cycle and whatever steps you've taken to get to that resentment, they haven't been there. They haven't been talking to you [crosstalk 00:15:35] yeah. I think just realizing that and saying, A, why was I feeling this way? Why did I feel resentment based on this one unmet thing?

Tim: What's it revealing in you?

Mackenzie: Yes. And it makes it, not easier just to get over it and it just be like it never happened or that you don't need to work through whatever the situation was to begin with, because obviously if there is something that brings an unmet expectation or you do have expectations, I don't think that that's wrong, but we have to communicate and I think that's what encompasses our expectations because we don't communicate them automatically because we just assume as other humans that you know what I need, because you're a human, you're a person but I mean-

Tim: Or sometimes we don't even know what we need.

Mackenzie: No, exactly. Yeah, we can't even communicate them. And so, yeah, I think this last year has been pretty revealing of that in myself of saying it's okay if those don't get met and it's okay, not everything has to be, we have to work through this and we have to have a talk about this and we have to, because I just kind of finally got to the point where I was, I have to just let it go. And then if I still feel like it's something that needs to be addressed then, okay. But I can't ruin my day every day because of it.

Tim: I love it. So how does one let something go?

Emmoe: I mean, it sounds like you're validating and empathizing, that's grace where it's, you're acknowledging this for you so you're empathizing, this might be the same for my husband, this might be the same for my kid. And so sympathy is different. Sympathy, you can kind of feel bad for someone who's not on your level, but empathizing is, we're both somewhat going through something so the grace is shared. It's not just, I'm giving it to you, we're both standing in it kind of deal.

Mackenzie: Exactly, yeah. Saying I know how I've been feeling. So I can only assume that there's some of that there for him. I also know that I'm feeling this way probably for reasons outside of just this one thing. And so I have to try to understand that first, before I can go to him and try to communicate that and say, why this one thing just pushed a button in you or whatever the thing is, which can be a good thing. But it's also kind of my default, you have to be careful not to let it build and let it rise and just mound on top of each other. But I do think that there's moments where you do have to just give yourself grace and give the other person grace and let it go and realize that it's not going to ruin your life in this moment.

Chris: I think we communicate better, we at least check in with each other better, we used to never do that. And that's probably the one thing that we do, I don't know if it's daily, but maybe as simple as, how are you doing? And when I say that, I actually mean it, not how's your day, but are you on the verge of existential crisis today or something? We never did that before. So I think that helps.

Mackenzie: Which I don't think we really do with most people. And when we put those expectations on people and then we're not checking in, we're not, like you said, Carlos, we're not seeing those people. We're not being present with those people and saying, why are they unable to meet this un expectation? Is there a reason? Is there something that I'm not seeing or that I can't see because I haven't asked and if you're not able or willing to be in a place where you can do that, I think that's when you do have to just let it go and say, I'm not at a place where I can meet them and try to help them or take that on for them or be someone who can. Yeah, I think it is all about grace and just say, "I'm not able to do that for them. So why am I expecting them to do it for me?"

Chris: I wonder if there's a balance of, if you're going to expect something from someone, then you also have to have an equal or a greater commitment to them to meet them there. I can't expect something of someone and then just be uninterested and uninvolved with them. So I think what Kenzie is saying is that if she has some expectation for me, honestly, her commitment to me is even more than the expectation and can sometimes override it. But the balance of health for the relationship and health for yourself and all that kind of stuff fits in there too.

Mackenzie: I think it's something that you find out later on in life, unfortunately with your own parents and with relationships you have in your life is that they're usually can feel very one sided, but only because that's how they were meant to be for so long in your life. And then you grow up and you look at your parents or you look at anyone else who's been a strong figure in your life. And you're, oh, I really don't try to meet them or ask them or try to counter those expectations and say, what is my role in this relationship? What is my role in any of this? And that's been something, especially over the last year and a half, that's been important for me to check in with myself consistently and say, "What is my role in this? Does any of this have to do with me at all?"

Tim: It's so healthy, it's so good.

Mackenzie: What's going on around me, is any of it about me? Yeah. And it's usually not. And especially when it concerns other people, because most of the time, they're not thinking about you. When people are making decisions, when people are going through things, as we all do, we have our own expectations and our own things that we need or that we need met and so we're trying to do that the best that we know how, and when you're in relationship with people, anyone, there's going to be unmet expectations. And yeah, so I think that's been the most helpful tool for me is to just take a step back and say, it's not about me. And then kind of do the work from there.

Tim: That's the beauty of these experiments, these practices, because I think the hope for these practices is that they would leave us more sober during our day. Obviously, not the alcohols, just sober in my expectations. It's pulling back, going to the 50,000 foot view going, huh? Again, we'd even talked about last week, it's holding the space for this thing and just looking at it in this clear box and going, "Huh, I just want to look at it for a second." Instead of taking it so personally, which I do, I just, I get drunk on that so quick and then I'm just, I'm hammered on that. And I can't even get out of that. It's like my son having a tantrum, but I just have a tantrum internally just that it doesn't come out.

Chris: Oh, mine comes out for sure. But I feel like I've gotten to the point where I'm, I need five minutes. I can do that, over the last year or there have even this year when the world started coming back together and the normal stresses of whatever come in and it hits me really hard and I take it real personal, I can say, "Okay, I just got this message and I'm really pissed. I need five minutes to clear my head." Whereas before I would just have taken it out on everyone around me and then Kenzie's got no idea what's happening.

Tim: So where does walking with Jesus in this fit? How does that help? Does it not help? I'm always trying to figure out where there are these layers where there's the actual presenting issue that happens right here, the towels, and then there's next level deeper that's kind of what counseling does, which is so beautiful. And I think is so helpful and so needed. It almost helps us get to the next level down. Next level, the base level is really ultimately, so then what do I believe to be true about God? And then what do I truly believe to be true about myself? What am I living out? And then what am I believe to be true about others? So I'm just trying to go to that next level down. And I think all of them are so important, but how does our view of God shape our expectations of others?

Mackenzie: Well, I mean, aren't expectations just conditions that we're putting on relationships or people?

Tim: Yeah, they're agreements

Mackenzie: Like you said, it's premeditated, resentment But it's a premeditated condition that you've put on a relationship or you put on a person or a situation. And I mean, to have any type of relationship, you just can't do that. As hard as it is, you cannot do that and it be successful or healthy. And I think that's, I mean, the basis of our relationship with Jesus is it's unconditional and it's easy for us to remind ourselves of that in moments where we need it. But I don't think it's as easy to remind ourselves that for other people when they need it and not just about their walk with Jesus or their spirituality or anything like that, I think we just have a hard time giving other people grace.

Tim: Totally, I want it so bad. I'm, "Yes God, thank you for your grace. But I don't know if I'm going to be willing to represent that to somebody else." Yeah.

Mackenzie: Yeah, because then we have to see the whole picture of that whole person and it kind of all crumbles, the whole story falls apart.

Tim: So right McKinzie, I love that.

Mackenzie: And whenever you do that to someone and you do see them that way, it's just like with anything else. So you start pulling on the strings of why you're feeling this way about someone else or an expectation or a condition you've put on it. And it slowly just kind of tears apart. And you're, oh, it wasn't real. I've had this whole thing that I've created in my mind and this conversation I've had in my mind because of whatever experiences, trauma, whatever I've been through and I've basically put that on everyone else. And yeah, I just think it's important to remember that we're all human and we're all-

Tim: In process.

Mackenzie: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone has their own crap and we have no... I mean, we get the very top layer of that when we meet people or interact with people or in relationship with people and it can be hard because you don't want people to be human, you want them to support you. You want to be able to trust people. You want that. You want to be in relationship. And I find that very hard, especially being an adult and making friends, it's so hard. It's so difficult because you're just, I mean, for lack of better words, you're so messed up and you have so much baggage and trauma and things and you're trying to be in relationship with people, but it's just not easy at all. It's a lot easier to not be around people or not deal with that, bring that in. It's almost, you're just bringing more in unnecessarily almost. It's kind of how I can look at it sometimes.

Tim: Their expectations that you're hoping that are, you're, well, it's not going to be met so I'm not even going to try.

Emmoe: Which is so my default.

Mackenzie: Same.

Emmoe: Yeah, where I'm I'll just me, myself and I.

Mackenzie: I'll handle it, I got it, yeah.

Emmoe: Which someone had once told me that they were, "Emmoe, you're like a switch blade." And I was, "Wow, that's cool." I was like, that's awesome. And she was, 'You should do many things." And I'm like, "Yeah." And she's, "But you tend to sharpen yourself." And I was, how did that cut me? I'm the switch blade. How did that cut me? And I was, "That's so real." I just I'm, I'll do it. Don't worry about it, you're not going to get my grief. You're not going to get my baggage, you're not going to get whatever. So I'm just going to do it by myself.

Mackenzie: My sister called me last week and she's just gone back to work because she had her third baby at the end of last year and her maternity leave ended and her job is really high stress and she called me and she's having a really hard time and she started crying and she's, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I don't mean to cry and da, da da." Then the next day she text me and was, "I'm so sorry I called you crying." She was, "You never cry. It's always me." I finally told her, I said, "Kelsey, I'm not proud of that. Because before I would've been proud of that and I would've been, "Yeah, you're right. You're always the mess. And I'm never." And now I'm looking at it like, it's not a good thing. I shouldn't be proud of that. It's not something that I hold highly.

Tim: Who are you if you would cry in front of people? What does that make you?

Mackenzie: I would've said weak before. I don't feel that way now.

Tim: But that was kind of what the narrative-

Mackenzie: But that's who people believe me to be because that's who I've always been, strong and now I'm becoming, I think a little softer and realizing that that's not something that I need to hold so closely, is something that I need to be proud of and you can still be a very strong person and-

Tim: Be vulnerable.

Mackenzie: Yeah. Be vulnerable and let people know you're not okay and let people in on your struggle which has been, I think another part of why I've been able to hold those expectations a little bit looser and say, I can kind of let go of this and release my grip on it and say, it's okay, I don't have to let it just fall back on me and be this strong person and take care of it and go through it by myself and say, "I got this." I don't have to bring anybody else in or bring in the backup or call somebody and let them know or, you know what I mean? So I think that's been another part that's kind of helped me is I can call someone and say, "Oh my gosh, I'm just so annoyed or I'm so upset."

Mackenzie: Yeah. And I just need to talk and not even fix it for me, but I just need to talk through this and just, yeah, I remember hearing it, it was either a meme or something, but it's like that idea of you go to someone and whenever they're bringing you a problem or something and you stop and say, okay, am I fixing or am I listening? And that's something that's always been in my mind whenever I am going to people is trying to just present them with that information immediately and just kind of, which is another probably control thing. But for me controlling the, but I also, I think it's helpful to say, just to let them know, I don't need it to be fixed, but I just need to talk and I need to just vent and yeah, I don't know. I think maybe I didn't want to let my expectations be known because then I couldn't be let down.

Tim: Girl, it's so huge. I mean, it's just, it keeps going deeper and deeper into this layer of expectations are on the bottom of a lot of these things. And I had heard somebody a long time ago talk about agreements, how many agreements we make with other people just in our own head.

Mackenzie: Yeah, that they have no idea about.

Tim: I have a whole agreement I have with my wife that she has no clue about.

Mackenzie: She has not signed anything. She's not on board more than likely.

Tim: Yeah, yeah. It's just it's classic. And I'm just not aware of those things. And I think the more sober we become with just stopping and going, "Okay, Jesus, I just want to practice being present in this moment, what are the agreements?" And how many agreements then I have with God? Obviously, he knows but I mean, I have so many agreements with him of things he was supposed to do or didn't do. Or I don't even ask because I'm, my agreement is okay, you're not going to do anything anyways. I mean, all these things are just fascinating when we just really keep going deeper and deeper, deeper, and then our agreement with, even yours McKenzie with other people about being weak, I mean that's an agreement in and of itself of, okay, just so we know everybody, even though nobody else is listing, I'm not weak. I'm strong. It's just, that is so fascinating and worth looking into.

Mackenzie: Are you saying I need more therapy?

Tim: Well, and that's why we-

Emmoe: We all do. We all do.

Mackenzie: Because I agree.

Tim: We've got your counselor right outside the door so-

Mackenzie: Bring her on in.

Tim: Bridget, come on in, Bridget. That was the first name that came in my head.

Chris: That's a good name.

Tim: To be honest, it was a third name that came back.

Emmoe: What was the first two? I need to know.

Tim: But I said in my brain. I'm like, nope, that's dumb.

Mackenzie: The best part on that, you always look at the door. So I do too. Is Bridget out there? So you're in. You're living the character.

Tim: This is a confrontation for you. You thought this whole time you were going to confront him, but we're confronting you.

Chris: That's how I felt the first time we went to therapy. Oh, we're really going to straighten her out.

Mackenzie: And he left real mad. Let me you.

Tim: Oh my gosh. Talk about, unmet expectations.

Chris: Oh God. I got a lot of that that day.

Mackenzie: Which then in turn of course, because as someone, a therapy retreat is my dream. I'm in the back of my mind, I'm, yeah, I know I need that, in my mind. I've just, and so I'm sitting there, I'm, they're not talking about me at all.

Emmoe: I'm not doing any work.

Mackenzie: I'm, come on, I need some work. And I'm so happy that he is working through all these things, but I'm expectations, hello?

Tim: Gosh. Well, this has been a, what we like to call in the ministry a fertile conversation.

Emmoe: I've never heard that in the ministry. And I've done it for years.

Chris: Although I do think it's weird that-

Tim: But just the whole expectations thing.

Mackenzie: I don't in ministry so I think we can say, we don't need to use that word.

Tim: That's so good.

Emmoe: You know what? You're leading with grace right now, okay?

Chris: Is that incubation [crosstalk 00:33:43]

Tim: Incubation, I thought of the [inaudible 00:33:44] and fertile felt right.

Chris: It did, it was nice.

Tim: Did that win?

Chris: Yeah.

Tim: Chris has a problem with the word incubation.

Mackenzie: Really? Why?

Tim: That's not worth asking.

Mackenzie: That's true, I'm sorry.

Chris: I could give you the whole thing.

Mackenzie: Yeah. I'm sorry. What was I? I should know better.

Tim: This isn't say for the whole family this podcast, let's be real honest about it.

Chris: We do a pretty good job.

Tim: I mean, yeah.

Chris: I've edited at least three things I wanted to say.

Tim: Oh, you guys today, this is so strong. Oh, I do this all the time. So people, if you're listening and we don't say too many cursing words on this podcast, just because I don't know just why not? It's just, we don't need to, but we're not afraid to walk into hard conversations, that's kind of what we've said. But I said just, I saw a couple today on my walk this morning with a guy and they pulled up and they pretended like they were about to hit us. And so you get that face of, you jerks. "Oh, you're my friends." You know, one of those? And they're out, they're awesome. But I saw they had two car seats at a minivan and right in the second row, two car seats that were empty, they just dropped their kids off. So I'm very free with the things I was saying. Let's be real honest. And all of a sudden I hear, "Mommy," I'm, "Oh my gosh, you have a kid in the back?" "Yeah. He's way back there. He's fine." It just, I, oh, the other day, a friend, girl named Mishi called me and oh, it was when Chris, we were at that football thing together. Remember that high school ministry? You were there too.

Emmoe: Oh, Turkey bowl, which was reading trukey bowl because someone misspelled it.

Chris: It wasn't the other day, eight months ago.

Tim: Yeah, it was eight months ago. Sorry, and McKenzie, you weren't there.

Mackenzie: Thanks for the invite.

Tim: No, but I had all my kids.

Chris: He had all the kids with him.

Emmoe: I would've invited you if I had known.

Chris: Which she came back to me after this thing and said we haven't gone anywhere with the kids all year and I go out of town and you take them to the park with a bunch of people and-

Mackenzie: Stuck at home every day, every weekend, not taking them anywhere. I finally was, I'm going to go visit my sister. She just had her baby. I literally call Chris, he's, "We're going to the painting place. And then we're going to go to this turkey." I'm what the... Cool, so everyone has COVID, thank you.

Tim: Totally. Yeah, we had everybody breathe on your kids. It was pretty great.

Mackenzie: Yeah, It was good.

Tim: So anyways, my friend Mishi called me and she's just talking and saying, how's your year? And I said something pretty strong with some strong words. And it's poop, it's manure.

Mackenzie: You didn't have a good year?

Tim: I just, it's like a bat and a ship crazy, that's what I said. And it's all of a sudden, I just said, "Oh, Mishi it's been crazy." And she all of a sudden goes, "Well, you've got a few little fans here in the car. It was in speakerphone." And I'm like, my God. And he goes, "Hey, Mr. Timmons, did you write the song everywhere I go?" I'm, "Yeah, buddy. I sure did."

Mackenzie: This is a different Tim. Bye.

Tim: Yeah. Bat ships are really cool. They're really cool. So I just have a real gift and I just got to stop it.

Emmoe: If it's a gift, let it flow, let it overflow, that's that good.

Mackenzie: No, that happens to me all the time.

Chris: [crosstalk 00:37:07] Just be, "This is who I am guys." Oh, I told you about dropping the one on my dad the other day, right?

Mackenzie: And his dad is, I mean, I don't think I've ever even heard him say anything mean about someone, I mean literally.

Chris: Never heard him say a bad word.

Mackenzie: He's the nicest human in the world.

Chris: He took it in stride.

Tim: We're about to do some questions for you. So everybody we'll, be right back.

Mackenzie: We need the outro music.

Tim: So everybody I'm about to go to Boston, we were talking about food, Chris is, "But do they have a Chipotle?"

Emmoe: He's thinking of passing through, do they have a chipotle.

Chris: I just want to make sure.

Tim: Yeah. Speaking of foodies, do they have an Arby's?

Chris: Do they have an Arby's, I'm thinking Kenzie used to live next door to the people who own Arby's, that's how rich she used to be before she married me.

Mackenzie: Yeah, things went down hill fast.

Emmoe: Remember the commitment part, yeah, yeah, it's way more value.

Mackenzie: I had this agreement in my head and he just-

Chris: No. I had an agreement in my head when I got to the gate and had to ring in and then I was, oh man, there was no dowry associated, we're fine now.

Mackenzie: We're working through it.

Emmoe: You made it through.

Tim: Okay. So Mackenzie, this now is called 10,000 thoughts.

Mackenzie: I don't know if I have that many, but I'll try.

Tim: I bet you do. You've made so many agreements. This one is called 10,000 agreements. Okay, so what's the agreement you have when you are French kissing Chris? Go.

Chris: I got one.

Mackenzie: Oh God, yeah.

Emmoe: No, no. This is Macknzie's moment, no. I got you Mackenzie.

Tim: I kind of want to hear it [crosstalk 00:38:49]

Mackenzie: It's the agreement that sometimes my needs aren't as important.

Chris: Oh man, wow.

Mackenzie: Listen, you will never be a mother. You will never understand the feeling of being, I've been touched too much today. I think that's something that I try to explain to him all the time.

Tim: Yeah. Hillary's had the same thing, yeah.

Mackenzie: I'm I don't care how much I love you. I don't want to be touched by anyone, even my cute little Chase, four year old. He's the cutest in the world, oh my gosh. But at the end of the day.

Chris: Lately I read a book and she goes and plays Nintendo after the kids go to bed.

Emmoe: In what crossing, what are you playing?

Mackenzie: Harry Potter.

Emmoe: Yes, let's connect after this.

Mackenzie: I'm not cool enough to have animal crossing.

Chris: She's a pro gamer.

Mackenzie: Yeah, I'm not cool enough. I just had old school Harry Potter.

Emmoe: They just released Apex on Nintendo so I'll text you. We'll play some games

Tim: I mean, she's a pro, you know that?

Chris: She's a real professional.

Tim: She literally was in contests.

Chris: She gets paid.

Emmoe: Okay, back in the day.

Tim: All right. Back to 10,000 thoughts.

Emmoe: It's like all the names he had for the therapist.

Mackenzie: Okay, okay, so that wasn't it? Am I done?

Tim: And this is a speed around. Okay, Mackenzie. So this isn't just, "Let me think about this for a while." This is first thing that comes to your mind.

Mackenzie: I'm the worst at this, okay.

Tim: I am too. Diapers or dishes?

Mackenzie: Oh, dishes.

Chris: No.

Mackenzie: I'm better at diapers, but I hate doing them and-

Chris: You never do the dishes.

Mackenzie: Because I don't have diapers anymore so I don't have to choose.

Chris: I'm a dishes guy.

Tim: Oh, this is making me so happy. This is precisely why I asked that question.

Emmoe: Yeah. Well, I mean, we're also doing speed fights. So you guys are still winning.

Tim: Yeah, awesome, all day, all day.

Chris: Perfect, still love you.

Tim: What's your expectation of each other with the dishes?

Chris: I'll do them. I'm fine with them.

Mackenzie: Yeah. Yeah. He does the dishes because I do everything else.

Emmoe: I mean one to zero, can we have a bell? One to zero, wrap up.

Mackenzie: I can't let him climb that like it's something-

Emmoe: And without the gloves, Mackenzie, you're my role model. You're my role model.

Mackenzie: I don't even put them on.

Tim: Okay, 10,000 thoughts. Quick, first thing, Chris?

Mackenzie: I got thrown off because I thought you [inaudible 00:41:01]

Tim: No, no, no. Chris, the word Chris, name Chris.

Mackenzie: Oh, he's oh my best friend.

Emmoe: Heart in the chat, hearts in the chat right now.

Chris: It's better than making out, that was nice.

Mackenzie: I had to redeem myself.

Chris: It felt really good.

Tim: Okay. We're back, please. Fruit snack addictions.

Mackenzie: Chris, all day. I mean it's-

Chris: I try to eat them all at once.

Mackenzie: Something like I've never seen before, it's strange.

Tim: Yeah, no. I mean he was describing it the end day and we were, yeah, I'm judging, I'm judging.

Mackenzie: But I keep buying them so I think there's a part of me-

Tim: You're enabling, you're enabling.

Chris: I keep asking her to stop.

Mackenzie: Because it's just about, he doesn't have a lot of things that he loves so I know he loves them.

Chris: They're going to kill me. I think they probably will.

Emmoe: Ones out of love, the other one's out of codependency.

Mackenzie: I mean listen, I buy a box and they're gone within a couple days. And Chase is, "Where's my fruits snacks lunch?" It's, "Mom, can I have some fruit snacks?" I'm like, "No, sorry."

Tim: Daddy's eaten them.

Mackenzie: They're gone.

Tim: Okay. Do these have characters or something on them?

Chris: No, it's just the fruit. And I also organize them by color so it's five or six packs, dumped out, organize them by color and I eat them by least favorite up to favorite.

Mackenzie: So how can I not, I mean, I just-

Tim: Pet peeves.

Mackenzie: I don't know.

Tim: Way to witness.

Mackenzie: I know, gosh, what's my pet peeves?

Tim: Chris saying, "Really?"

Chris: I think anybody not giving people respect.

Mackenzie: Yeah, I think injustice, lack of respect. That's where my one comes out.

Tim: Cat's in musical.

Mackenzie: I love it. Had to whisper that.

Emmoe: It's a safe space.

Mackenzie: I have it on DVD.

Chris: It's probably not the first one. She probably burnt the first one out.

Mackenzie: It was a gift.

Chris: She made me go to the real-

Mackenzie: I did. I made him take me it, what was it, my 21st birthday?

Chris: I don't remember.

Mackenzie: I did.

Chris: That one, the one that we almost got kicked out of. No, that was the Phantom.

Mackenzie: That's my favorite.

Tim: Why did you almost get kicked out of family opera? Did you spoil the ending?

Chris: One, the drinks are strong.

Mackenzie: Yeah, this was before I don't drink anymore and this is when I still did, but I did have too much wine because I was very excited.

Chris: I'm pretty sure the lead's parents were right next to us as well.

Mackenzie: I know every word and I was so excited.

Chris: And she sang the whole thing.

Mackenzie: Literally, I'd been waiting my whole life to finally see Phantom live and I could not stop singing and I literally almost got kicked out.

Chris: I think I actually maybe had a confrontation with someone.

Mackenzie: Yeah, he did. I was embarrassed after that but I finally just shut my mouth, see, I love musicals.

Chris: It was classy.

Mackenzie: Yeah. But I do love Cats. I have a picture of me dressed, I did it like as a [crosstalk 00:43:50]

Chris: Last birthday, I'm just kidding.

Emmoe: I was, we got to put them in the show.

Mackenzie: I was, I don't remember that.

Tim: I'm getting nervous here. We've had a lot of inappropriate conversations.

Chris: My birthday, yeah.

Tim: Yes, for Chris's birthday. Kids, don't touch mom for a day. Don't touch mom all day kids. It's a game, don't touch her. She's going to wear a Cat outfit.

Emmoe: I'm here but I'm not here.

Tim: The Gray Snail.

Mackenzie: Oh, you've been fed these. Now I understand. Now I understand. We met at a bar called the Gray Snail, this is not Christian approved. I was 19,

Tim: 10,000 Minutes Experiment podcast approved.

Mackenzie: [crosstalk 00:44:32] That's where we met. But he worked at a church at the time and I was not 21. And so we told everyone we met at a coffee bean but there's not a coffee bean in Tulsa.

Chris: Because there's not coffee beans in Tulsa, we thought it was funny.

Tim: That's a good story.

Mackenzie: We have to explain it a little too much so I don't know if it's that funny.

Emmoe: But we celebrate it today.

Tim: Totally. Gosh, I love, yeah. How many years you married?

Chris: 10 this year.

Mackenzie: 10 years this year.

Tim: Okay. We're going to take a quick break and thank you Mackenzie so much.

Mackenzie: Ah, thanks for having me.

Tim: Thank you. Thanks for letting us have this guy too.

Mackenzie: Yeah, more of him always.

Tim: You keep saying that. He keeps saying, yeah guys, I can do it every day. Apparently, my wife says it's totally fine, and night actually.

Emmoe: She's really supportive, yeah, she believe in me.

Mackenzie: Guys. I believe in this. Just keep it going. You guys are going on tour soon, right?

Tim: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, for a year.

Mackenzie: Yeah, a year. Yeah, perfect.

Tim: Don't touch mommy.

Mackenzie: Oh, is that the name of that episode?

Tim: It's a tour.

Mackenzie: No.

Tim: Don't touch mommy tour. Okay. So welcome back. And we are in the pre-experiment. So we're going to talk about how the experiment, what it's going to be for this next week and we're jumping into a new series. So we're rethinking words and concepts, things that we've always heard.

Emmoe: Words we use every day.

Tim: Words we use and especially in the kind of religious Christian "circles" and so this one that we're going to rethink is church. By the way, McKenzie's still with us, which I'm very excited about.

Chris: I am too. I prefer.

Tim: Let's be honest.

Mackenzie: You can't get rid of me. Sorry.

Tim: I actually asked her if I could, if she'd leave but she won't.

Mackenzie: Yeah, he tried, it was awkward, but I just pushed through, powered through.

Chris: We're actually moving in Tim.

Tim: That's so great, please do. We do really want to do a commun, Hill and I really do want to do a commun.

Chris: Let's go, me as well.

Tim: This is getting down weird.

Mackenzie: Is that another word you're rethinking?

Tim: Rethinking church equal equals commun, no.

Mackenzie: You're thinking of cult.

Tim: No, I don't want to do a cult, just how do we, okay, okay, this is-

Mackenzie: Anyways, I'll leave, I'll leave. I'll leave. I'll leave.

Emmoe: Stay please.

Tim: So speaking of meeting, you see what I did there?

Chris: You did.

Mackenzie: Oh yeah, it was good.

Emmoe: It was great.

Tim: It was a different spelling. Okay. Good thing we're going to scrap most of this. Hey everybody, Tim Timmons here with another 10,000 Minute Experiment.

Chris: A lot more makes it in than I think in the moment that is going to make it in, I'm going to be honest.

Tim: Oh yeah. I, I definitely leave. The stuff that we're, no way, that's the stupidest, I leave in. So we're talking about church. What is the church's role in the 10,080 minutes gather and scattered. So this week's practice is going to be being the church. So I think as I was a pastor for years out in the Orange county-

Chris: Oh, love that county.

Tim: It is a great county. And I had a great community out there. Every time I said the word church, it was always about a thing I did or a place I went, always. And even though I knew the idea that church is not that, it's who we are, not what we do or where we go. Every time we use the word, it's always a thing that we go to or a thing we do. Just think about it, every time we hear that word in our cultures, our little sub Christian culture, whatever, it's always about that. And to see the question of, so what did Jesus actually say about church? And he only used the word twice and it was not in the context that we really would even think it was about. It was about Peter, it's the people of God would be built upon the rock.

Tim: And then the other one was when, oh, it's when you're supposed to go to somebody who's wronged you. And you go to them by yourself and then with another person and then if they still aren't listening, then you take the community. Bring the church, the people around, the Jesus people around, those are the only two contexts that Jesus actually talks about church, which is so baffling. So what is the church's role in the 10,000 minutes? And then the 80 minutes are gathered and scattered.

Chris: Depends how you define church, right?

Mackenzie: And I think it depends on what expectations you've put on your church.

Tim: On the 501C3 or?

Mackenzie: Yes. Yeah.

Tim: Yeah. I mean on the institution or on us? We are the gathered church right now.

Chris: I think most people don't get to the gathered church, big sea church, communion of believers type thing.

Tim: Oops. Don't get there.

Chris: Don't get there. I don't think they understand that piece of it. I think they just see a building or see a tax write off.

Tim: I mean, that's how we talk about it. I mean, that is literally the entire context. This is, this church is called this church, it's come to this church, what church do you go to? So what's the purpose of the church? If our definition is actually going to be more of the gathering and scattering of God's people. So part of the thing that really changed my mind on even wanting to talk about this idea was when I started being a parent going, I don't want my kid to ever think that they go to church and then they leave church. And then they aren't. I want my sons and my daughters to be, "Oh no, I am the church." At school when somebody's lame to me, I am the church when I'm with my brother, I am the church when I'm alone. I am still the same spirit that raise Jesus from the dead is in me all week long. I want them to feel that instead of, oh, I went to church, I go to church because then you leave church.

Chris: You're defining the church as people-

Tim: The people of God that gather together. But also

Chris: So gathering is part of it. Or does Everyone have an innate church inside of them by just being created?

Mackenzie: So I have a question. Why do we need to hold so much weight on that word when Jesus didn't?

Tim: Yeah, no, I love it.

Mackenzie: I think in talking about redefining it is do we really need to, or do we need to just step away from that idea completely and say, it's not about that at all so we don't need to even, let's just find a different way to even talk about it rather than trying to continue using the word church and it being such a huge piece of being a Christian or being in the the Jesus faith.

Tim: I mean, there's so much talk of it outside of Jesus, in the Bible, in New Testament and Old Testament. I mean, even us being temples now, I actually am the dwelling place of God. The temple is me now and it's you. So it's almost, I love that question. Sorry, you were close when I thought you were-

Chris: Don't you touch my wife again.

Tim: I hit her on the arm, you guys, heart.

Mackenzie: Guys, I have to go.

Tim: Just kidding.

Mackenzie: You'll hear from my lawyer.

Chris: We don't have, it's her dad.

Tim: So I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath of the whole because it's a great question.

Chris: Also, churches have tried to be cool and rename stuff so much that even that to me has gotten, oh.

Tim: But yeah, but it's so become the thing of where we go and really what's hard about the institution is that there's so much driving the institution. Gosh, you guys, I love the gathering of Jesus' people. I love it for 80 minutes.

Chris: What art do you love about it?

Tim: I think it's beautiful. Even yesterday in the gathering, there's something so powerful about remembering together. Even the idea of taking communion which is kind of coming back in my heart because it's been a bit of passe for a long time for me, just tradition, but even just remembering Jesus together in a group, whether we're singing his songs or praying things together or just kind of looking around and going, "Okay, you're in this with me too, awesome." There's something really powerful about that, but it's only 80 minutes. So what's it look like in the 10,000 minutes for us to be the church, not to do church ever again. And so this isn't to blast the institution. I mean, we're all a part of an institution, a church gathering in some way, but I think when we left my job years ago and we started hanging out at that motel with just pimps and prostitutes and these awesome families that all lived in this one little room motel room, and for three years, that was church.

Tim: We actually started just doing life with them and I was like, oh, this is not what I thought it was. And I learned so much about Jesus and the kingdom of God available in that place probably more so in that place than I have in any gathering. So I'm just, it's just, what is this thing? What's it look like for us to be the church, not do it. So the experiment is to be the church, that's what it is the experiment for the week. And I just want to throw this out there. So Adam and Eve, they were the first re presenters of God. So that was their role was to name things, to inhabit, to live in that place. And to literally just take care of all the things. They were the first re presenters as if God out were doing it on the earth, that concept has been really profound to me of what's it look like for us to actually represent, not represent, but re present again now as image bearers of God and the spirit that raise Jesus from the dead in us, what's it look like to actually re present him, to be his church?

Tim: I mean, it's all so cliche and cheesy to go be the body, but really what would that look like this week for all of us to practice, not doing church, but being the church, being the re presenters of Jesus on this planet to our spouses, to our neighbors?

Chris: If we are the church that was built on the rock, if we are God's people and then all of these exercises that we've done, seeing other people in that way, it dumbs it all down a lot more than we try to make it. It's none of this other stuff matters that much, just freaking love people, be a decent human being, see the Christ image in everyone and yourself and then treat them accordingly. And I think we'd be on a lot better track of being the church if we just did that simple thing.

Tim: It's literally trying to join Jesus in our day that actually being the re presenter and Mike Erie, he said this weekend, he was just talking out how basically the demons have the best theology of all and oh my gosh, it's so true. I mean, none of us have the same theology in this room, none of us do, which is awesome. And I love that we can all be at the table together and go, yeah, I don't know. Let's just be curious about things. That's what we get to do. We could argue about theology and what's right, what's wrong or we could try to actually join Jesus in what he's doing and love people well, so I think that's really the invitation for this week and I think we'll learn a lot. So again, if you're doing this with us you guys let us know how it's going.

Mackenzie: Not me though. I'm not really a part of this. I don't want to know.

Tim: Please do actually.

Chris: 918-

Mackenzie: Easy, easy.

Tim: [inaudible 00:55:51] But would you do this with somebody else? This is way better if you are bringing somebody else into this conversation into your own life. So just find somebody else to do this with or a few other people. And which leads me to another part that why don't you share this podcast with somebody, because why not? And then rate it good.

Chris: 10 out of 10, only.

Tim: 15 out of 15.

Emmoe: We don't know how to break a two so 10 out of 10 works fine, so rate twice, just five stars on one and five stars on the other.

Chris: If you got two accounts, just get on and double up, just get some email addresses and sign up.

Mackenzie: Hack into your wife's like Chris did.

Tim: Yeah. It has been so fun talking to people and seeing their comments about this thing so far. So something cool's happening and this is our last one. See you guys later.

Mackenzie: It was great while it last.

011-Mackenzie C-Square.jpg