008: Expect God!
Author and host of Human Hope Podcast Carlos Whittaker joins us this week to share how he responds to his enemies online, his biggest pet peeve and the importance of building bridges with people.
Our RETHINK series dives into expectations. We all have them of God, people and ourselves. Are expectations good or bad? What do our expectations say about us? Expect God with us this week!
This week’s Practice:
Expect God!
+ 008 Expect God! - Carlos Whittaker Transcript
Tim: Hey everybody, Tim Timmons here with another 10,000 Minute experiment. To my great left, to my great, my oh crap. [crosstalk 00:00:08] I've been dogging my kids about not knowing their left and right. I'm teaching my daughter how to drive. Yeah. She's 14. And I'm like, "Go left, go left." And she goes right. I'm like, "Honey, we got to figure this out." Okay. To my right, Emmoe Doniz.
Emmoe: Hello.
Carlos: Emmoe Doniz.
Tim: To my far left-
Chris: Far.
Tim: ...Christopher Cleveland.
Chris: What's up.
Tim: Can anybody call you Christopher?
Chris: My mom.
Tim: Okay.
Chris: And my wife.
Tim: Yeah. When she's pissed?
Chris: When she's really nice. Yeah.
Tim: Oh, wow. Is that like a call to the bedroom [crosstalk 00:00:38]?
Chris: No. [crosstalk 00:00:40] she's ever used that.
Tim: Christopher.
Carlos: Christopher.
Chris: But it is kind of like a term of endearment. I dated this girl from Arkansas once, she can make Chris like 19 syllables.
Carlos: Oh wow.
Chris: And I was like...
Tim: [inaudible 00:00:50].
Chris: Yeah. It was so good. Anyways, that has nothing to... Let's move on.
Tim: Back to your wife.
Emmoe: We got some wounds there. We'll do that later.
Carlos: Yeah, we'll deal with that.
Emmoe: We'll pack that later.
Tim: And then over here we've got Carlos Whittaker.
Carlos: That's me.
Tim: Whoo.
Carlos: It's to your direct left.
Tim: It's direct. And we've had a lot of debate over this. Like I said hard left...
Chris: Hard left, sharp left.
Tim: Yeah. Bart gave us grief because I said to my hard left and he said, this isn't your hard left.
Carlos: This is definitely not a hard left, this is more of a soft left.
Tim: [crosstalk 00:01:17]. Thank you. We kicked him off. We stopped the podcast at that point. [crosstalk 00:01:21].
Chris: We don't care what songs he's written. Out.
Carlos: I mean, I can only imagine that. Boom.
Tim: Oh, gosh that bit is always funny.
Carlos: It always is. There were millions of moons all throughout many bands across the United States right now.
Chris: Yes. Especially them listening.
Tim: Hey, so the whole purpose of this podcast, is that we are awesome at believing things in our minds and saying, yes, I believe this to be true. That, let's say praying for my enemy is the right thing to do. But then when somebody cuts you off on the road, or when somebody attacks you verbally online it's like, hell no, and we just come right back. And we don't actually practice the principles in the heart of Jesus. We believe them in our minds, but we're not found living as though they're true. So 10,000 Minutes, the idea is there're 10,080 minutes in a week. 80 of those minutes are in a gathering, if you do that as the church but then we scatter as the church for 10,000 minutes.
Carlos: Yep. Yep.
Tim: So the idea is what would it look like for us to practice the principles of Jesus during the 10,000 minutes? So this past week we were practicing, praying for our enemies. Like what does that look like? Blessing our enemies. And you guys want to jump in on-
Carlos: How'd that go?
Tim: ...the idea of... That's what we're about to talk about.
Carlos: Oh, okay.
Tim: So the idea of blessing our enemies is we talked to Mike Erie this past week.
Carlos: Yep. Oh Mike.
Tim: So good.
Emmoe: So good. Still processing.
Chris: It was a lot.
Carlos: Yeah.
Tim: Yeah. And to bless was actually to...
Chris: You were calling out what they already are.
Emmoe: Yeah. So blessing them was doing that.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: [crosstalk 00:02:48] Who they are and who they're becoming. That God's in process even with those people.
Carlos: Yeah.
Emmoe: Right.
Tim: And it doesn't have to be me to actually take them down and beat them up in a sense.
Carlos: Yep. Yep.
Tim: Mike was actually talking about how blessing your enemy every time that there was a rebuke from Jesus, it was pretty strong. It wasn't a soft, like, oh, you're sweet.
Carlos: Right.
Tim: There was a strength to it. Which is partly why I love having you here today, Carlos. Because you're a jerk. Lets just get it out there.
Emmoe: We just want to bless you. Okay?
Carlos: That's it. I am. That is what everybody calls me is a jerk.
Tim: So that's really again why we wanted to bring you here, it was more of a carefrontation for you.
Carlos: Okay. Okay.
Tim: Your wife and kids are right outside and so we're all going to be [crosstalk 00:03:28].
Carlos: The unfortunate thing is they did this to me last night. So the fact that they do it twice in like 12 hours is really weird.
Tim: They beat us to it.
Carlos: Dang it.
Chris: Didn't feel like it stuck last night.
Carlos: Yeah.
Tim: Carlos Whittaker is a great man. And I don't say that lightly, Carlos intimately knows sorrow, true brokenness, joy. And through it all is one of the real hope dealers of our time. Some of the content in this episode and really all of our episodes might feel uncomfortable just to sit in, but can I just invite you into a place of wonder. What might Jesus be inviting you and me into through this? This conversation just keeps getting better at every turn. So here we go. We've been friends for many years now.
Carlos: Yeah.
Tim: And I've been a fan of you for so many years, but even in this past season, this past year and a half, I just appreciate you and your space in this world so much more. And really quick, what would you call yourself in this past season? I know you'd have some creative...
Carlos: Yeah. For the longest time people that followed my whatever would be like, oh, that guy's for a long time he was a worship artist, right? Then he was a Christian author, then a Christian speaker. And then I feel like all that went away this year. I feel like my job imploded, not in a bad way. I did it on purpose. And I would say that it was last year around March when the Ahmaud Arbery situation happened that I made a video. Now, listen, I had 34,000 Instagram followers when I made this video. And it was called, how my white friends should support the black community right now, is what it was. I was like, oh, I'll make this little like a YouTube video. I put some nice bed of music behind me and I sat down, used my... I was like, this will be nice. And then I woke up the next morning with 27,000 Instagram followers, and I was like, oh crap. I actually just destroyed my career in one Instagram video. Tomorrow there'll be 20,000, the next day, and then it'll just be my wife and kids. What have I done?
Tim: It's like Bitcoin [crosstalk 00:05:33].
Carlos: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like, wow. Then the Lord was just like, uh-uh (negative), because I almost deleted it. So I almost pulled the video down. I was like, no, no, no. My followers are white evangelical, conservative Americans and I just pissed them all off.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Yup.
Carlos: And I just remember almost holding my finger over delete and just the Lord was like, no, welcome to your new space. Welcome to what I'm calling you to. And so I didn't, not only did I not hit delete, I started making videos every week on the black experience in America. And obviously always through the lens of my faith, but not necessarily Christian videos. I wasn't like looking in the Bible for this or looking for a scripture that... I just was telling my story. And the more I talked about it, the more new people started to show up. And the more some of the people that left started to come back.
Tim: Right.
Carlos: Actually yesterday I had a meeting with my manager where we tried to come up with a mission statement of who I am now because everything that we've been filtering everything through is no longer. Right?
Tim: Yeah.
Carlos: And it's like, I want to be a safe and trustworthy guide for all humans to look through a different lens at the rest of humanity, maybe in a perspective they haven't looked at it before.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Love that.
Carlos: And so that's kind of what I feel like I am, what I've been doing, having really hard conversations with my tribe that's followed me for a long time and I never talked about this. And so to give them grace in knowing that this is a shock. This is a shock for them like wait a second, the family guy that vlogs his trips with his kids and talks about the birds is now talking about racism and actually confronting me on maybe my accidental racism?
Chris: Wow.
Carlos: So it's been a turn, but I have never felt more called to something. I've never felt more like I'm just in that sweet spot that I'm supposed to be in way more than when I was singing or when I was preaching or this is it right now. This is what I'm supposed to be doing.
Tim: I couldn't agree more. Just as your friend watching, I mean, you're great at all those other things, but this is revolutionary stuff. This is revolution stuff it's not just-
Carlos: Yeah, I believe that.
Tim: ...industry stuff.
Carlos: Yep.
Tim: Okay. What'd you call yourself again? You said ambassador?
Carlos: A guide.
Tim: That's what I said. A guide.
Carlos: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. A guide. A trustworthy [crosstalk 00:07:58] guide that provides a safe space for hard conversations.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: That's so good. Okay. So with that, which you have been. I mean, I would say for all of us even just in this circle right here, you've been that this past season. That has been so helpful for me to see certain things that I did not see before.
Carlos: Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: And I'm so grateful for that. And I've told you that and texted you that. But here's the question. So...
Carlos: I'd say I screen captured it, it's now my screensaver on [crosstalk 00:08:22].
Tim: That's what...
Carlos: Just you telling me how awesome I am.
Tim: That's what makes me feel so good. So the question is, what happened this past year? At the base level, how did we become so divided and really enemies?
Carlos: Yeah. So...
Tim: As you just look at the whole scope.
Carlos: We actually are no more divided than we were a year ago.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Love that.
Carlos: We actually just now see it. So what has happened is there was a lid placed over America and all the nastiness access pool of everything we're seeing right now was just covered. And all this last year has done is open it up. And so people are like, we're so divided now, we're more racist than we were. No, no, we're just seeing it now. Thank God we're finally seeing it, and we're seeing it... And so now people are having to talk about it. So with the advent of the ways that we communicate, social media, all these things that's 24/7, the acceleration of content, the acceleration of opinions, that's gotten faster. We weren't created to have the capacity to consume as much as we're consuming so there's like, everything's hitting at one time. We're seeing the underbelly of America while we're trying to learn how to really not be human anymore because we're robots now. We're just consuming more and more and more. So we can't handle that. So we can't handle that, but we're also trying to handle the hardest season we've ever been in and so these two things are coming together and there's implosions.
Carlos: And I think that's where we're at. But again, I'm a hope guy, but the hope that I see is through it all I'm seeing people in slow shifts, the first thing is just to get them to see. I'm not trying to get them to change their mind. I'm not trying to get them to vote different. I'm not trying, I just want them to see, and I'm starting to see more and more people just see me and just see the problem, and that's it. That's all I can ask for. That's all I'm trying to do, is just get them to see and so that's where I'm getting my hope. People that maybe never would've seen before are seeing and man, that's my drug. That's my drug of choice is when I see them seeing, I'm like, okay, I can go another day.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Yeah. I never feel like you're trying to change people. I feel like you're just trying to bring it, whatever it is more to the light.
Carlos: Yeah.
Tim: Which I love. Okay. So we're talking about enemies. I think you seem to have made... Do you need something?
Carlos: I need to throw my gum away [crosstalk 00:10:41] before I start smacking it.
Tim: Oh, gosh.
Emmoe: From the top.
Carlos: There it is.
Tim: All right. Cool.
Carlos: Total from the top. [crosstalk 00:10:46]. Trust me, I knew it's been in my mouth and I haven't chewed, it's been stuck to the roof of my mouth. So if I sound like I have a retainer in my mouth, it's not a retainer, it's a freaking piece of Dentyne.
Emmoe: Hey, there's nothing wrong with it. We all have retainers.
Carlos: Dentyne, do they make Dentyne anymore? [crosstalk 00:10:57] Is that like an 80s thing? Okay. [inaudible 00:10:59].
Chris: Is that actual gum or is it the stuff that [crosstalk 00:11:02].
Carlos: No, no, no. Dentyne was a brand of gum made in the 90s.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: Okay. So this past year, I would say that you probably developed a lot of enemies in this past season. You were the enemy or you made a lot of enemies, how did that look? What's that look like?
Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. It's actually pretty miraculous for someone like me. I, for my entire life was a people pleaser. If I even fathom that one person was annoyed at me, I'd be sucking my thumb in a fetal position for...
Emmoe: Relatable.
Carlos: Yeah. And man, it literally is miraculous. I just know that the Lord has brought strength up inside of me and the strength isn't like, oh, I'm strong because I know people can hate me and screw you.
Tim: Yeah.
Carlos: That's not what I'm talking about. What I've realized is that most, if not all, people that hate me or really dislike me or would consider themselves my enemy are just wounded and walking through their story in a certain way. And so I look at everyone that comes at me, for instance we'll just talk about today's [crosstalk 00:12:04].
Tim: Yeah. Let's go.
Carlos: Let's just go today. Yesterday I put up a how to celebrate Cinco de Mayo respectfully.
Tim: Right. Yeah. Because you're half Mexican.
Carlos: I'm half Mexican.
Tim: Yeah.
Carlos: My dad's black, black Panamanian Afro-Latino, my mom's Mexican. So I speak to that. Well, I woke up this morning and the comments, and most of the time comments if people are ignorant, I'm fine with. But they were blatant racist comments, almost as if like white people that were responding to this feel more able to be racist against Mexicans than they do black people for some reason.
Tim: Wow.
Carlos: And I mean, there's a whole other conversation there, right?
Emmoe: Yeah.
Carlos: Because honestly, Mexican people may be even more oppressed than black people are in this country. But there's a culture that comes from Mexicans that is so kind and so warm and hospitable that white people mistake that for them being willing to accept the racism. And so on my post, I'm just seeing blatant racism. I normally just let you know, if I had the capacity would DM every single racist person that ends up. This is what I do.
Tim: Yeah. What would you say?
Carlos: This is what I do. I actually don't just DM them. I send them a video. It freaks them out.
Chris: So they can see your face.
Carlos: They have no idea. Because you can't hate somebody eye to eye. Nobody can. I don't care who you are. And so I send him a video and I'm like, Hey, I just need you to look me in the eye. This is Carlos, obviously, and I just want to tell you that I get it and I see you and I just need you to see me and we see things differently, but I'm not trying to get you to see that differently, I just want you to see me.
Chris: Yeah.
Carlos: And nine to times out of 10, these racists end up being some of my closest friends on Instagram. Right? And so...
Chris: Oh my gosh.
Carlos: So that's something that I do, but I didn't do that today, because there are some days where I don't have it in me. And so people see me a lot and they're like, "Carlos, you're just so grace filled," I'm like, "Well, not all the time. You know what I do." I let the racists... And listen, I'm being very specific when I say racist, not everybody that has questions about race or disagrees with me is a racist. I need to make sure that that's clear. I'm talking about blatant people that are coming in to throw bombs and then leave.
Chris: Yeah.
Carlos: Most of them don't even follow me. Like someone shared my video and they see it and they pop in, right? But then what I do is I let that... some people would be like, well, just block them and delete the comment. No, no, no, no. What I do is I let the comment sit for 24 hours and I let people like it and I wait for 175 people that follow me that may not know that I know that they're liking these comments. And on days like today I block them too.
Chris: Oh wow.
Carlos: So I not only block the blatant racist, but I block the secret racists, because sometimes I've just got a clean house and let people know I'm okay with you coming in here and having crucial conversations.
Tim: Yeah.
Carlos: But what I'm not okay with is somebody that is around me for a long time and I've poured everything I can and if you're just going to be blatantly ignorant and racist, I just don't have time. And my mental health deserves the block button. And so I use it a lot more these days than I did last year because it's exhausting. And then what's even more exhausting is to see friends like comments. Again, people don't think you can see who they are when they like it and then so I'm like, well maybe they accidentally liked it. And then I'll wait for another one and I'll see them like it. And then guess what? Sorry, that's got to be [crosstalk 00:15:23]. So it's a constant dance with the enemy. I realize that they're actually not the enemy. The enemy is their enemy, which is causing them to want to be my enemy. And so I know...
Tim: What's that mean?
Carlos: Well, the enemy is seeking to steal, kill and destroy.
Tim: Got it.
Carlos: And so he is seeking to steal, kill, and destroy their hearts. And so their hearts and the anger and the rage that's coming out of them isn't actually coming out of them. It's coming from the enemy, the true enemy. And so that's why I do look at people, they're coming from trauma, they're coming from wounding. It's my goal to help everybody find freedom. And that's why I have such a huge amount of grace for most people, is because man, I need it. And I know that they're just in pain, most of these people are in pain. That's why nine out of 10 people that I send a video to will apologize right away and say, you know what, I shouldn't have said that, I am confused about this. And bam, guess what? Now we have a conversation.
Tim: Right.
Carlos: If you can look past and realize that they're actually not the enemy, there's probably a small amount of people that really are my enemy. Most of these people are actually friends that don't even know they're my friends yet. I look at them and I'm like ooh, you don't even know that we're about to be close.
Tim: So when you're sober enough, obviously not with the alcohols, but I'm saying just in your awareness of what really is going on, the bigger picture, that's kind of where you go. When you're not sober, when you kind of get drunk on...
Carlos: Then the rage comes up and then the neck gets red and then you spout back-
Tim: Immediately.
Carlos: ...and it's like, wait a second. I did an entire episode on crucial conversations three episodes ago on my podcast, helping people realize that most of the conversations that we get so irritated and fired up about, they just don't feel safe. And so you've got to build a safe runway in order for a conversation to really happen. And so you create that safety. You really ask yourself the question, what do I want for me? What do I want for them? What do I want for the relationship? When you start with those questions, suddenly the conversation... I'm like, you know what? I actually want goodness for this person. I actually want this person to see things clearly. How in the world are they ever going to see things clearly if I just cut them off?
Chris: Right.
Carlos: And so people are always asking me like, oh, I want to leave my church because my pastor he's a Trumper or whatever. He's decided to do this or that, so I'm going to leave. And I was like, well, you can leave, but if you leave, who's going to be there to change it?
Tim: Yeah.
Carlos: If everyone just leaves. And that's what I feel called to do is not to leave. But there are days like today where I will ask them to leave with the block button.
Tim: So what or who is an enemy to you?
Carlos: I mean, people might be confused by this, but I really don't... I don't think I have any enemies. I really feel like the enemy is Satan, is the enemy. That's who I see my enemy as. So even it could be like... I was a Black Lives Matter march in June and we came up across white supremacists and they were salivating angry. I'm talking about like screaming, spit flying out and drool coming out.
Tim: Yeah.
Carlos: And all I just could think is like, what happened?
Chris: Yeah.
Carlos: When did it happen? Because this wasn't there all the time. And that's something that God's just given me that I see everybody like that. And so it's hard for me to find a true enemy.
Tim: What about those who persecute you?
Carlos: Okay. Yeah.
Tim: And I love what you just said and I'm going to take it one level deeper, so then it's bless those who persecute you, bless...
Carlos: Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: How does that work? How has that worked? When has it not worked? And when I say worked, I also mean it may not change anybody else but it'll change your heart.
Carlos: Absolutely. So those that persecute me, again, we can talk about the shallowness of social media. I don't even feel persecuted by people that are trying to persecute me. I'm like, whatever, I'm not losing my sleep over that. But now let's talk about friends. Let's talk about relationships. Let's talk about the fact that my closest and longest lasting friend of my life, we went to college together, we roommates together, all those things. I realized a couple weeks ago, oh, he doesn't follow me on Instagram anymore. That's weird. And then I was like, "Hey, we haven't talked in a couple months, you want to come over?" And then he came over and boom, in a matter of 10 minutes I realized that he does not agree with one thing that I say. Not only that, but he begins to persecute me. He begins to point his finger. He begins to, you make everything divisive, it's you who further racism. And I'm like, holy crap. I love you.
Tim: Yeah.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Carlos: And so now what do I do? And so the goal at that point, again, for people that persecute me just to get them to see me. Once he felt safe enough to know that I'm not going to try to change his mind on anything, you can listen to all the pundits on talk radio you want, you can repeat their lines back to me. Do you trust me and my story? I said, I'm not going to bring you data. I'm not going to bring you... Do you trust me and my story? And I got a yes, yes he does. Okay. So can I tell you about me and my story? And so I began to tell him things that he'd never known before. Here's another thing, people get confused with me because my dad's black, my mom's Mexican, but my dad's a black Panamanian, so he's a black man that speaks Spanish. So again, this is just ignorant, and ignorant not even in a demeaning way, but ignorance that runs a bliss in America. Oh wait. Black people can speak Spanish and be just as African as African-Americans? It's like, yeah, the slave boats didn't just drop slaves off on a one way ticket to America, they dropped them off all over the planet, so there's black people that speak Italian.
Emmoe: Right.
Carlos: So I'm actually teaching him this. Because he's like, I didn't even think you were black. And the more I'm just allowing him to see me, the more I'm seeing his heart soften and by the end of this conversation, the one that persecuted me is in tears telling me that he wants to see me. By the next week he's read White Fragility, he's read two other books. Then he FaceTimes me with the black plumber in his house, he's like, "Yoh Carlos, I'm telling Dwayne about you and the conversation we had and I'm just telling him." And here I'm like, this is it. I didn't try to change his mind, I just tried to get him to see me. And when he saw me, that's all he needed. And so for people that persecute me, how it works is I'm okay with them persecuting me because one thing I know I can get them to do is to see me. And once they see me, well, the persecution just stops.
Chris: Yeah.
Carlos: Yeah. I don't know if that's even helpful for people, but just knowing that those that persecute you, no matter what it is, know that they've got trauma and wounding and a story of their own. And if you can look at them through that lens, you can have empathy for them, and you can say, okay, this rage is coming from somewhere. This persecution is coming from somewhere. What if I started to ask them questions about them? What if I begin to ask them about their story? And the second you start asking them about their story, it's shocking to those that are persecuting you. And then it opens them up to, maybe this is a safer place, and then I'm just telling you the anger level goes down and the persecution goes away. I just believe that at the core of every human there's a desire for us to connect and for more togetherness. Unity is I think a really, I don't know if it's a word that can be achieved, but togetherness, I think it's more something that can be achieved. You can be together with somebody that doesn't like you, you can be together with somebody that doesn't think like you, and that's kind of what I'm looking for is the togetherness piece.
Tim: Yeah. And there's a difference between uniformity and unity.
Carlos: Yeah.
Tim: Which is I think the same as togetherness.
Carlos: Yeah.
Chris: This makes me think of some of the stuff that Mike was talking about. And I wonder if the enemy isn't people, but the inability to see people for who they are.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: Both them and us, and us and them. And so what I hear you doing is digging deeper to see who they are and offering a space for them to see you for who you are.
Carlos: Absolutely.
Chris: And in the midst of that, there are no enemies.
Carlos: Right.
Chris: There's just broken people in process.
Carlos: Yeah.
Chris: And the way that we bless in the midst of that is to see and then call out who people are.
Carlos: Yeah. That's good.
Chris: Just these two conversations for me have really reshaped what blessing is completely.
Carlos: Yeah.
Tim: We're trying to redefine words that have always been said, so we're redefining like hashtag blessed.
Carlos: Yeah.
Tim: I'm blessed because I got a job, I'm blessed because I got this. It's like that's actually never used in the Bible.
Carlos: Right, right. Right.
Tim: So what really is it to bless people? So it is to call out their identity, but what you're doing there, which I love is it's almost like the other side of that. It's like revealing your identity.
Chris: See me. Yes.
Tim: It's like both sides are being seen with who they actually are.
Chris: Yup.
Tim: And when that happens, it works. And there are going to be many times when, I mean, whether it's a race stuff or whatever that looks like [crosstalk 00:24:04] to have different enemies or different hard conversations, that's a great practice-
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: ...of that being the end goal.
Emmoe: I mean, it's powerful. I feel like I grew up thinking to bless your enemy meant you were the cost. Like you were just going to take what it was because they're the ones that need to be blessed. And to hear you kind of be like I know my worth and the way God sees me so I need you to see it as well, it would transform you too. It's like, oh, it's just like Mike Erie said, that circle of everyone being blessed at once by generosity, by giving space like that. I'm like, man. Okay.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: It's also what he talked about how Jesus talked about, it's like when you offer the other cheek it's like saying, no, no, no, you're going to see me for me. You're going to see me as [crosstalk 00:24:49] so for someone to slap you with their back hand was demeaning but to slap you with an open hand was like, oh no, we're peers now. So no, we're going to open hand slap each other a little bit and we're going to see each other for who we are.
Tim: That is a full circle of slaps. [crosstalk 00:25:06].
Chris: Yeah. Right?
Tim: And that was the beginning of our relationship, Carlos. I remember you hit me so hard.
Carlos: So hard.
Emmoe: You were like, he's the one.
Carlos: You didn't feel though because of the beard.
Tim: Yeah, yeah.
Carlos: Yeah. You didn't feel it.
Chris: It's a little cushioning.
Carlos: It's a little cushion there.
Tim: No, we had both had little beards back then.
Carlos: We did. Little beards.
Tim: Okay. So how do we bless and pray for those enemies or the people that are persecuting us when they don't want to be seen or to see you? And how has that gone?
Carlos: Yeah. Slowly. It's slow blessings, right? If they're not going to receive it, you throw some things up against the wall and barely anything sticks. It's the same thing. You just keep blessing and if they're not going to accept it, you still have to keep going. You still have to keep... There's probably like 20 or so people I know I probably should block, but they've been enemies for so long that I almost feel like this is [crosstalk 00:25:58]. Yeah, I'm just like, no, I'm going to keep blessing you. I'm going to keep at it, I'm going to keep at it, I'm going to keep at it, I'm going to keep at it. And that's the thing, when it comes to, again, me helping somebody change, what I feel like most people want to do, we'll speak specifically to enemies or somebody that vehemently disagrees with you. If we want them in a conversation to make a 45 degree turn, as you would call a hard left.
Tim: Yeah. Hard left. So true.
Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But here's the thing, that's not going to happen. And so what I'm doing every day with these say 20 people that are my "enemies" is, and I'm seeing it happen. My goal every day is just a one degree, even a half degree even if they don't even know they've changed. Just by seeing me, I know they have changed. So if they really see me, they get half a degree. So, if all I ever accomplish over five years of them DMing me mean things is they've moved one degree, you know what happens without one degree? If you're a boat and you move one degree, well, in 10 miles, you're only going to be a foot in a different direction than you were. But guess what? In 100 miles, now you're going to be, I don't know, 100 feet. And then in 10,000 miles or however many minutes, are we doing here? Whatever.
Tim: Yeah, 10,000 minutes. Yeah.
Carlos: 10,000 minutes. Guess what, that one degree is actually going to have them miles apart from where their original direction was. So as I'm blessing them every day, I'm just hoping for one degree, because what's going to happen is I know it may take 10 years, but in 10 years, because of the one degree that I shifted them and they don't even know that they shifted, I promise you they're going to be a completely different place than they ever would've been in the beginning.
Chris: That's right.
Carlos: And so, that's just what I'm trying to do every day. It's just one degree, not 45, just one.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Love that.
Chris: I have a selfish follow up question.
Tim: Go.
Chris: How can white...
Carlos: How can you help me?
Chris: No, no, no. How can a white CCM artist like Tim and I are and how can we be supportive in this industry that's kind of pressing against it?
Tim: Oh yeah.
Chris: And not kind of, it really is. If I post anything on my socials, I've lost thousands of followers this year in the same kind of thing. I have not had the grace that you've had, which seems really stupid just being a white guy.
Carlos: No, it's okay.
Chris: I'm just wondering from you, how can we support this whole thing better?
Carlos: Yeah. I honestly think just by saying something. The amount of silence is gutting and knowing that the reason why a lot of my even evangelical megachurch, pastor friends aren't saying anything is tithe. That's it. That is why or record sales or you are in a season right now where your grandkids will have the opportunity to look back at your digital footprint and see whether or not grandma or grandpa-
Tim: What you cared about.
Carlos: ...stood up. I look at pictures from the civil rights movement, and I see some of these white people that are marching with Martin Luther King and I think, their grandkids must be so proud. And then, I think about the ones who see their grandparents on the other side, because the other side at that moment was normal. Right? That was normal. So screaming at a black person in 1960 was normal. Nobody felt like I'm doing something bad. Right? It was just normal. So what feels normal now? Well, silence feels normal. Well guess what? In 40 years, when grandkids are looking back, are they going to see-
Tim: It's good, Carlos.
Carlos: ...what's normal? Are they going to see silence? Or are you going to have to sacrifice and risk? What I promise you a lot of those, on those buses in the Montgomery marches, a lot of those white people sacrificed everything. Probably their careers, probably a lot of things in order to do what was right. And so my answer is not an easy one, but it does take risk in order to really be rescuers. And so I would say to my white brothers and sisters like, you guys run it all, you run the country, you run everything. Black people can yell as loud as we want, but that's not going to change anything. You hold the power, especially as a white man in America, you do. You hold the keys that are going to unlock a lot of things for people that they can't unlock. So whenever I see, especially a white man speak out, I'm just like, this is what it's going to take. More of that. So yeah, just more being risky, more losing followers, more... I know some friends that have done what you're asking that have lost. They've had to change jobs, but man, I'm just so grateful that they did that. And it's risky. We're in a risky season. Things are changing, things are... But we're going to look back, I'm telling you, and you're not going to have wanted to just been silent, so just be a voice.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: You said you're a bridge, right?
Carlos: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Tim: A bridge is something that actually can carry people over here on this one side and actually walk them all the way to the other side. It's a hard thing to do because you can either drop bombs on both sides. Both sides are bombs. You're just making people go further to their sides. That's just what I see all the time is when something is said, it just makes people go, "Well, you know what? Here's the reason for this." And they just get further on their side. So how do we walk together with people over something, having different thoughts. I mean, part of what you're doing is you're inviting people just to think, just to an awareness.
Carlos: Yeah. This may not work with your analogy, but go with me for a second.
Tim: Go.
Carlos: I'm looking at a bridge, I'm thinking about a bridge and a bridge is connecting two sides. Right?
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carlos: And in order to be a bridge, a bridge would never work if I was just like half a bridge sticking from my side over, and then there's a gap and I'm like, "Hey, I need you to run as fast as you can and jump over the abyss and land on the halfway bridge and come up here." No, the bridge actually has to connect to all of their thoughts, feelings, emotions, voting, all of it. So, you actually have to be connected. So what do I have to do in order to be a true bridge? I listen to podcast that people that know me, their jaws would drop. I follow Twitter accounts that bash people that believe like me on a daily basis. I am reading, I am listening, because I need to know the heartbeat behind both sides. Okay. I've got a side. Yes. I'm a human. I've got an opinion, but in order to be a true bridge, you can't be ignorant to there's truth, actual truth. Listen, there's not just one side, there's truths to what the other people are thinking.
Tim: Totally.
Carlos: And so I've got to find and dig. Great example. So Breonna Taylor, I'm super vocal. I want no knock warrants abolished. I'm like, [inaudible 00:32:37]. I'm screaming up because I'm seeing the history of no knock warrants in the South, and I'm seeing where they came from and I'm seeing the racist history of them, so I'm very loud. Now this is a statement that I say all the time on my socials. I say all the time, don't stand on issues, but walk with people. I say that constantly, because where people get in trouble is they've got an opinion on an issue, but they don't know anybody who the issue affects. So people that are like, "Black lives matter. People are Marxist, socialist. They want to destroy the nuclear family. It's all blue lives matter." I'm like, well, are you friends with a black person that marches a black lives matter, and have you asked them, are you walking with the people? So what did I have to do? If I'm saying this, I got to do it. Right? So I'm like, okay, I got a friend, Matt Alby, who is a police officer in Los Angeles. I mean, he follows me on Instagram, he hasn't unfollowed me. He'll like things that I post. And so I'm like, Hey, how are you doing? I'm going to Marco Polo. So Marco Polo. Do people know Marco Polo?
Tim: Yeah, yeah. I do.
Carlos: Okay, cool. Okay. So I sent him a video message. I'm like, "Hey, so, what's your thoughts on the no knock warrants?" And this is what he tells me. "So I served one two nights ago. And before I went, I kissed Lori," his wife, "goodbye. It was at 3:00 AM. I went and I kissed my two kids goodbye because where we were going, there was a real big likelihood that they were going to be shots fired. And this may be the last time I see them. And the truth is if we were to have knocked, they would have blasted a hole straight through us. So I need you to know, when I do a no knock warrant, it's actually, because we know that the people, if we knock, are going to try to murder us, the bad people." So suddenly this is what happened. Now I'm hearing one of my close friends, Matt, and I'm thinking, well, I don't want to go to his funeral. Guess what? No, knock warrants no longer became an issue, it became a person.
Tim: Gosh. So good.
Carlos: And for me, who is blatant in my black lives matterness, I suddenly was like, guess what guys? Maybe not all no knock warrants. Maybe not all of them because I need Matt alive. And so suddenly, my conversation shifted. What that did is that when I walked with Matt, things began to shift and things began to change. I went over and connected the bridge to him thinking that that bridge was going to walk him over to me, guess what it did? It actually, it walked me over to him. And the more I think we do that, the more I think we're going to see just, we think that there's sides to issues, but I honestly believe that more times than not people are really after the same thing. And yes, I believe that there needs to be a massive restructuring of policing in America, but guess what? I need my buddy Matt to live. And Matt's my friend and I changed. When I connected a bridge over there, it actually changed me when I was trying to change him.
Tim: Did you hear that? No knock warrants no longer became an issue, it became a person. Don't stand on issues, but walk with people. Who do you utterly disagree with right now? Who might Jesus want you to learn from and grow with? Let's stay curious. Yeah. I mean, even just as we talk about enemies, even praying for your enemies or blessing your enemies has a bigger change on me than it does on that person. And that's just seeing the person for who they actually are. Pointing that out or even seeing myself and them. Gosh, it's so good, Carlos.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: Thank you.
Carlos: Yeah. You're welcome.
Tim: We're about to jump into a few questions.
Carlos: Hey, can I pee before the questions [crosstalk 00:36:12].
Tim: Carlos, welcome to 10,000 thoughts. Today it's 10,000 thoughts instead of 10,000 questions. Let's go. Porque, that means because, when I say palabra that means word. What's your first thought? So it's just like, this is what I'd like to call speed round.
Carlos: Oh, shoot. Okay.
Tim: And if you mess this up [crosstalk 00:36:37]. Just so you know, I hate these.
Carlos: I hate these. If I knew you were going to do this, I would've never said yes.
Tim: I'm going to become your enemy right now.
Carlos: I'm leaving.
Tim: Okay. Right. [crosstalk 00:36:47] So once again, 10,000 thoughts.
Carlos: But how long do I have before I have to say the word?
Tim: Oh, bro, it's called a speed round.
Emmoe: Half a second.
Carlos: [crosstalk 00:36:53]. Okay. Go.
Tim: I mean, okay. Pet peeves, go.
Carlos: Body odor. Oh, shit, sorry.
Tim: Is it really?
Carlos: I guess, because that's what came out. I don't know. You didn't even give me a chance to think about it. You can't choose it really.
Emmoe: Your true self came through.
Tim: No, but it's got to be something that really [crosstalk 00:37:09] comes to your mind [crosstalk 00:37:10]. Is body odor...
Carlos: I think so. Apparently I said it like I...
Tim: Wow.
Carlos: Yeah. I just...
Chris: I feel like [crosstalk 00:37:16]. I take it offensively. Yeah.
Emmoe: Everyone's checking themselves real quick. Are we good? Are we [crosstalk 00:37:23] pet peeve?
Tim: No, it's so great. Gosh, I think we're done. [crosstalk 00:37:26]. Okay. And go. Pranks.
Carlos: Oh, putting saran wrap under a toilet seat.
Tim: Has that happened to you?
Carlos: Oh no. My daughter and I have prank wars, my 16 year old daughter and I have prank wars. And so it's been going for like two years and she does it all the time.
Tim: Oh, love that.
Carlos: She does it after I'm asleep in bed. And then so, I'm groggy, not thinking if I have to wake up, mid 40s in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom.
Tim: Yes. All day.
Carlos: All over.
Tim: Oh my gosh. Let's talk about that later, by the way, the mid 40s.
Carlos: Yep. Yep.
Tim: Okay. Favorite movie. Go.
Carlos: Braveheart.
Chris: Oh, really? Wow.
Carlos: Apparently that's what came out. You asked me the favorite movie and you said fast. It has to be under half a second.
Chris: I like it.
Tim: Oh, really?
Emmoe: This is a safe space. [crosstalk 00:38:07].
Tim: It is truly the best. I mean, it's the fastest. [crosstalk 00:38:10] Nobody's taken this serious.
Carlos: I'm trying to be serious guys. You said half a second.
Chris: You're winning.
Carlos: I'm coming in half a second.
Chris: You're winning.
Tim: Okay. California.
Carlos: LA, East LA, Pico Rivera, [inaudible 00:38:20].
Tim: Well, that's a lot of words.
Carlos: Okay. [crosstalk 00:38:22] That's where I was born. Born in East LA.
Tim: What's up? Good song. Milk. Speed round.
Carlos: Baby.
Emmoe: And that's the one that got us, but it makes sense, guys. It makes sense.
Carlos: I had to pause.
Tim: There was more time than any other word with that one. You said baby.
Emmoe: [crosstalk 00:38:46] the correct one.
Tim: Gosh. Your 20s.
Carlos: Oh, idiot.
Tim: Okay. Nickname.
Carlos: Los. People call me Los.
Tim: Tofu.
Carlos: Yummy.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: Are you a fan of tofu [crosstalk 00:39:00].
Carlos: If I go and get...
Tim: But how do you do it? Do you do it [crosstalk 00:39:04] fun? Yoh, see.
Chris: Never had tofu.
Tim: Oh. Oh, my gosh.
Emmoe: You got to go to Bite A Bit. The new place.
Chris: What is it?
Emmoe: Bite A Bit.
Chris: Send me a link.
Tim: Where is that?
Chris: It's going to be great.
Emmoe: Listen, everybody...
Tim: Watch your mouth.
Emmoe: [inaudible 00:39:14] invite. It's just going to say [crosstalk 00:39:16]. Okay.
Carlos: Yeah. Yep. Just don't slur that when you say that.
Tim: Thank you. Way to witness, Carlos.
Carlos: I got you.
Tim: Most afraid of what?
Carlos: Spiders. Easy.
Tim: I don't tell people, I shouldn't even say this. I don't tell people that because I know what friends do.
Chris: Oh, yeah.
Tim: They're like, oh, you're afraid of this. [crosstalk 00:39:35] So they will... Like on tour buses, that's the worst to say what you're afraid of.
Carlos: Under your pillow. Lord have mercy.
Tim: Just so you guys know, I'm not afraid of spiders at all. That's...
Carlos: I'm not either anymore. I'm over them. [crosstalk 00:39:45] I've been healed.
Tim: Yeah. Okay. Cats.
Carlos: Oh, Henry, my cat. I love it. Literally hate every cat. Hated every cat up until my cat. I love this cat.
Tim: What is it about Henry that has changed your view? Has Henry become a bridge?
Carlos: Well...
Tim: A bridge, a safe place?
Carlos: A safe place for other cats?
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carlos: Henry I think maybe hates me. Like will swap me.
Tim: Your enemy. Wow.
Carlos: Yeah, yeah. But then the reason why I love him so much is, after like nine attempts to injure me, I'll be sitting down. He just comes and just hops in my lap and I'm like...
Chris: You may have battered wife syndrome.
Carlos: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. He loves me. So there's this traumatic relationship that happens.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: Wow.
Emmoe: Co-dependency.
Tim: Okay. Best parenting advice.
Carlos: Oh, don't let your kids grow up seeing the back of an iPhone instead of your own eyes.
Tim: So good. Five things or people that shaped you into what you are today.
Carlos: Five things or people?
Tim: Yep.
Carlos: My dad [inaudible 00:40:37]. My dad would be one. John Aldridge's teachings, more so his teachings on prayer have really shaped me. I would say my wife and she is grace with skin on. I would say...
Tim: This is a speed round. I don't want to say that again.
Carlos: Yeah, I know that speed. You said five things though. That's crazy.
Tim: Yeah.
Carlos: Rick Warren, he's just been like a sidekick mentor of mine that will text me all the time and give me great advice. And then I would say this last year, all of you, everyone listening to me that gives me the time of day to help educate them. They've changed me. They've given me hope. So yeah, those five things. There you go.
Tim: Awesome.
Carlos: Yeah.
Tim: Carlos, thank you so much-
Carlos: Thank you guys.
Tim: ...for being with us.
Emmoe: Carlos-
Carlos: You're welcome.
Emmoe: ...you're so good.
Tim: Your podcast, give us just a little bit of where people are going to be finding you.
Carlos: Yeah. It's called Human Hope. It's in the society and culture section on all the podcast platforms and then Loswhit on Instagram, L-O-S-W-H-I-T is again, talk about hard things, but I talk about fluffy things.
Tim: So good.
Carlos: Those things too. And then also, if you want to follow me on Twitter though, that's like the alternate ego of me where I'm a little bit more angry and upset over there. So if you want to see that you can head over to Twitter.
Tim: Okay. Interesting.
Carlos: Yeah, yeah. No, definitely there's an Instagram Los and a Twitter.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: All right.
Tim: So, awesome. Well, thank you so much, dude.
Carlos: Love you guys.
Chris: Good.
Emmoe: Yay. Thanks Carlos. So good.
Tim: Okay. Now we're going to talk about the next experiment and I'm excited about this one. And not like I haven't been excited about the other ones.
Emmoe: It's good to hear. I was worried.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: So glad you're in this, your heart's still in it.
Tim: Yeah. I have noticed that we talk eye to eye, and I think I have an issue with cats.
Chris: Do you?
Tim: Well, I just, I really have a prejudice maybe.
Chris: Maybe so. Maybe you need to build a bridge.
Emmoe: Towards cats or towards people who like cats?
Chris: Oh, could get serious. I'm like that with people who like Kansas City barbecue. I can't like them.
Emmoe: Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. One goes first.
Chris: But that's it. That's my whole story.
Tim: Okay. Well, I was going to try to tie this into expectations, but I can't. So we're going to do a little series on expectations and expectations are huge with me.
Chris: Oh wow.
Tim: It's a huge deal with me. So they're dangerous for me, to be honest.
Chris: Are they ever realistic?
Tim: Yeah. Hillary, my wife would say, oh no, she can have realistic expectations. And they don't bring her down like they do me.
Chris: But do you have realistic expectations, is what I'm asking?
Tim: Probably not realistic. I know that whatever this thing can happen. It can look like this and it can work like this, it just rarely does.
Chris: It's like the lottery, can happen.
Tim: Yes, exactly.
Chris: Probably won't.
Tim: Exactly. So, okay. So question is, what are expectations and what do we expect from God? So we're going to through our expectations of God, then of ourselves and then of others. So there's going to be three weeks in a row of practicing expectations and what that looks like. So, okay. Go. What are expectations?
Emmoe: I know for me, expectations or expecting something from someone is saying, this is who they are. That's something that doesn't change. So when I expect something from someone, it's something that I don't have to hope for. It is what it is. I should be able to lean on you to do this.
Tim: Right.
Emmoe: So simple things. I should expect my phone to turn on because I've charged it kind of deal.
Tim: So, that's a valid expectation.
Emmoe: Yes. But with people it's not easy to just expect, because expectation's all about me receiving something without needing to check in on it in a sense. But you can't control that with people or yourself. And I have a problem with self expectations. I have really intense expectations on myself all day. Oh this is going to be hard. Just thinking about it, I'm like and I'm on two sides of it too. And I think it's tied with grace and I know we'll have to touch on that, but expectations on myself, really hard. Expectations on others, even God, I don't even try.
Chris: Really?
Emmoe: Sometimes I'm like, why bother? I don't want to be upset or-
Tim: Or disappointed.
Emmoe: ...disappointed.
Tim: Yep.
Emmoe: Or even hope honestly. So that's why they're all on me.
Chris: Yep.
Tim: Interesting.
Emmoe: It's all hitting me now guys.
Chris: Oh my God.
Emmoe: What's our practice? I need an exit.
Chris: Yes. Yeah.
Emmoe: Yeah. So, that's my experience with expectations.
Chris: Okay. If I'm honest...
Tim: No, please don't be.
Chris: I'll try not to be. I try to not be on this podcast as much as possible, but if I'm going to start now, I probably expect way too much out of people. And it's gotten me in trouble. I mean, from my wife to my kids, to all kinds of things. There can be really silly things that, if I come home from tour, I expect the house not to be a mess. I should expect for it to be.
Tim: Yeah. Three little children.
Chris: Like all of my kids just have torn my house up. I should expect that it's going to be, but I've disappointed myself in my head when I walk in and it just is what it is. To the point of even people I've hired before that work for me, even if they say they're going to do something and I always expect them to do that, it's almost unreasonable for me to expect them to always be able to fulfill a commitment. And so I've gotten myself in trouble there. It's like, well, you said you'd do this, what's the issue? This is going to mess me up.
Emmoe: I'm telling you I'm not ready.
Tim: So the idea of expectation that somebody said a while back to me that was really profound. They're saying that when you expect something from somebody and they come through and do it, then it's like, oh, well, you met my expectation. There's not a celebration of that or a thankfulness of it. It's just you met it. And if they don't, then you're pissed.
Chris: Yes. Yeah.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: That's where it becomes dangerous for me.
Chris: Yep. That's right.
Emmoe: Do you think it's like a because you owe me kind of deal? Do you think you could go down that path? Sometimes we expect things from people because we're owed that for something?
Tim: Maybe. I think, to me, it just seems like it's the right thing. It's like, no, this is just what is. This is what should be if we are all... What's the all cylinders phrase?
Chris: Firing on all cylinders.
Tim: Thank you. Look at you Chris.
Chris: You got it baby. I got it right.
Tim: If we are all firing on all cylinders, this should totally work. I just expect this because...
Chris: We've all got a cylinder out every once in a while.
Tim: Chris, I don't appreciate that. So this week the practice is actually expect God, period. I mean, that's expecting God in our conversations, in our tensions, in our chaos, in anxiety, in misunderstandings, in beauty. We're just going to practice expecting God. But what's the difference between expectancy and expectations or how God should show up? Because I have an expectation of God. Actually, I'm kind of with you Emmoe, that I've stopped a lot of my expectations of God, because it's a thing that He has not done or hasn't done or probably won't do, so I just won't expect it from him anymore. So I kind of pull back altogether.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I know we're going to dive into this later, but I think when my brother died, that was the first where I was like, okay, you didn't come through like I thought you would. You're a God who revives. You're a God who...
Tim: Right.
Emmoe: So I'm not even going to touch that with you anymore. Okay. I'm not even going to expect you to bring more life when life now is already wounded. So I get that almost numb part of me when it comes to expectation. It's like a box that I've checked with an X, like he doesn't do this. So I'm no longer with wonder, which I think is expectancy. I'm no longer looking to see and be in awe. I'm just here with a checklist ready to check off the things I'm waiting-
Chris: Wow.
Emmoe: ...to be done. And so I'm like, I'm going to put the clipboard down. I just don't even care. So, that...
Tim: Because if you were to expect him, but expect him to do these things instead of just to be present in, those are two very different things.
Emmoe: Yeah. It's not like, okay, he did the three things I was looking for today. It was, I looked for him everywhere and I saw new ways of seeing God or things I didn't expect.
Tim: Expecting God, there's a posture of wonder.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: I'm sure with your cancer stuff, this has happened to me because of I'm deaf in my left ear and had tumors and stuff and surgeries and all that kind of stuff. I get Christians who want to pray for me for healing all the time, to the point where it makes me feel bad when God doesn't heal me. And so I've had a really difficult time in the middle of that. These people are so expectant they believe-
Tim: Yep. They're in. Yeah.
Chris: ...God is going to heal me. And I'm kind of like, you're the 12th person this tour that's prayed for my healing. And then I feel bad because as I feel that way. And so I wonder what that says, I'm processing this out loud, but what that says about my expectation of God.
Tim: Yeah. Well, it literally has shaped all of us and everybody listening. It is these things that we have expected and hoped from God, things that did not come through that shapes my view of God.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: And I think part of what we're doing here is trying to say, okay, we all have a skewed view of who God is, just a limited view because of our experience. When my daughter prays for her dreams to go away, like she's having bad dreams and we pray every night and she's like, FYI, your prayer crap doesn't work because I keep having bad dreams. That shapes her as she walks forward, but we all go, well, here's what the Bible says and here's what you need to do. But she's like, yeah, I'll believe all that stuff in my mind, but I can't really live that because I don't believe God will come through. So this practice is ultimately inviting us into just walking in this week with wonder and an expectancy that God is present. What if it's actually true?
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: Some of us might go, I don't know if it is. That's totally fine, but what if it is true that this week we would just expect that he is at work in all these things? Maybe not doing what we're wanting him to do.
Chris: But he's still what this [crosstalk 00:51:12].
Tim: And even the idea of him showing up, we say that all the time, like God really showed up.
Emmoe: Right.
Tim: And I go, I don't know what that means, because is he not always here? Isn't that the actual gospel, the actual good news is that we are part of the kingdom all the time? So anyways, that is the practice. Do you guys have any other thoughts for that?
Chris: No, I'm terrified.
Emmoe: I guess my last thought is I also know I expect negative things and that's like a whole different part.
Chris: A whole different part.
Emmoe: I also just expect the worst all the time, because the best that I expected didn't come through. So anything good or whatever, I'm like the other shoe's about to drop.
Chris: What is that old saying? Like the best way to ever be disappointed is to lower your expectations.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: So it's like, if you keep your expectations at the bottom, then anything is good news.
Tim: Right, right.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Chris: Right. Yeah. I don't know that that's where God's design was supposed to take us.
Tim: So people, that's this week, that is the invitation for us this week. That's the experiment for this week that we don't know everything. I'm sure everybody who's listening is like, you guys are missing this and this and this and this, that's totally great. But this isn't necessarily about us, this is about you being curious and us being curious this week of what's it look like and what would it look just for us to walk with expectation literally to the practices, expect God in our conversations, intentions, in chaos, in anxiety, in misunderstandings, in beauty, in our walks, expect God. So that is the practice and the experiment for this week. So let us know how that's going people. Thank you, Chris.
Chris: Thank you.
Tim: Thank you Emmoe.
Chris: Love it.
Tim: Thanks you guys so much for listening and being a part of this. It is so fun to hear your comments and hear how this has been encouraging to you. Would you please rate this? Just go and rate it somewhere. Just say this is awesome, or put comments in there. That would be super helpful for us. And if you want to go to 10000minutes.com, go check it out. All right, guys. See you next week.
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