007: Bless Your Enemy
Mike Erre (the VOX Podcast) joins us this week to walk us through our last week RETHINKING “bless”, his stance on boa constrictors and how our words have the power.
Our enemies might not be our favorite people but Jesus consistently invites us to bless them. What does it truly look like to turn the other cheek?
This week’s Practice: Bless Your Enemy
+ 007 Bless Your Enemy - Mike Erre Transcript
Tim: Okay. Hey everybody, Tim Timmons [inaudible 00:00:02] with another 10,000 minute experiment and to my right.
Emmoe: [inaudible 00:00:07].
Tim: Emmoe [Donnis 00:00:07].
Emmoe: Yeah. That's me.
Tim: To my hot left. I just figured I'd try something different.
Chris: I like it.
Tim: Hot left. We got Chris Cleveland over here.
Chris: What's up?
Tim: Straight in front of us.
Mike: Yeah.
Tim: Hot front.
Emmoe: Whoa.
Tim: It's the hot front. At the hot front. Everybody. We've got Mr Mike Erre.
Mike: Hello.
Tim: So that's it, man. Thanks for being on Mike.
Mike: Let me tell you, this is the highlight of my week right here.
Tim: Yes. Yes.
Mike: And I'm usually...
Tim: You've been texting me every day.
Mike: Yes. No. I love it. Love what you do with Tim. Always, always a pleasure to do this. And then the fact that you've got two very intelligent people with you makes this all the more interesting. Two shay right?
Tim: Yeah. So to the hot front. So Mike, we are so happy to have you. I get to hang out with you a whole bunch. We have spent so much time together over the years and then now it was like, how many year hiatus?
Mike: It was a 10 year hiatus.
Tim: 10 year hiatus.
Mike: And then there was a mutual embracing via phone, via zoom and then via literal.
Tim: Literal.
Mike: In person.
Tim: Hot fronts.
Emmoe: Hot fronts.
Tim: Hot fronts.
Mike: Yeah. There were two hot fronts that.
Chris: Collided.
Mike: That met. Perfect.
Chris: Well, that's what we're talking about Tim.
Tim: Yeah. Cold fronts.
Emmoe: Cold fronts, okay.
Mike: Yeah. That's the new practice.
Tim: Well, here's the question we're going to start out with today with the practices, is how far is too far, Mike?
Chris: That's what.
Mike: Yeah We're... Yeah, absolutely. That's the key question that we've always asked and for me, it's very, very simple. If your parents cannot be in the room with you, then you can't do it.
Tim: Wow.
Chris: I found myself doing things in front of my parents that I shouldn't do now though.
Tim: Wow. This turned.
Mike: Well, I just made sure I was never in front of my parents.
Chris: Well, I was on the phone with my dad the other day and I backed into a car. I've never done this in my life. And I dropped a dirty word on the phone with my dad. I called my wife.
Mike: Yeah, you did.
Tim: You cursed.
Chris: I was like, "Hey."
Mike: Yeah, you did. Hot mic.
Chris: I said this in front of my dad. I was like, "Wow." She's like, "He knows who you are at this point. It's fine."
Mike: He's aware?
Chris: He's aware. He is now.
Mike: Yeah. And he probably had never heard that word before.
Chris: Yes.
Mike: Or that phrase, was it a phrase or was it a word?
Chris: It was just a singular word.
Mike: Yeah.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: Yeah.
Chris: Just a singular. [crosstalk 00:02:20].
Mike: Was the emphasis on the first letter.
Tim: Thank you.
Mike: Or on what came after?
Tim: Is this too many question?
Chris: I think it...
Tim: Who's the guest here?
Chris: Most of the words just linger out of my mouth. So they don't come out very harsh but it was smooth. You could tell it had been recited and practiced. It wasn't my first day. So he probably read between the lines.
Mike: Yeah.
Emmoe: Gosh.
Mike: Okay. That's fair. That's fair.
Tim: I mean, I'm excited to see how we get into blessed with that.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah. I can. I'll tie it in. Don't worry.
Mike: You blessed your father.
Chris: Yeah.
Mike: Right there.
Tim: Wow. This is so right. Well, Michael, we've been talking through or trying to rethink. We were trying to rethink our thinking on certain things that we've always thought and heard and learned. And you are so great at this. You are the king of this and I love-
Mike: I'm the king of this.
Tim: ... your view of this. I mean, in a lot of ways, you're the king. But right now we've gone through just this idea of being blessed. And that's always been this thing where it was this almost a financial or we got things out of it.
Mike: Yes.
Tim: Or man, I just got my job. I'm so blessed. We talked to Chonda Pierce last week. Who's had just a crazy journey in her life.
Mike: Wow.
Tim: And just try to figure out, what's it look like to still say, "I'm blessed." Even in the midst of crap. And I say crap really well because I feel like that was close to the word that you said, Chris?
Chris: I wish it was.
Mike: No, I don't. I think there was a different word that Chris said.
Tim: You think it was different?
Emmoe: Yeah.
Mike: Just based on [crosstalk 00:03:50].
Tim: You said four letters.
Mike: Yeah.
Chris: Yes I wish it was.
Tim: [inaudible 00:03:54] clues. Shit.
Mike: The clue game. Yeah, so strong.
Tim: Well, so the practice this past week was to see others as blessed. So it's been, and we are seeing ourselves as blessed and just saying, "You know what? In the midst of my stuff, [shtuff, 00:00:03]" If you will, again, I'm getting closer to Chris. Shtuff?
Chris: No.
Mike: Yes.
Emmoe: It's cold.
Mike: It's still cold that I am.
Tim: "I'm even blessed. I'm being made whole, even in the midst of this stuff." And actually, that's probably the most beautiful place. Is when I'm being made whole in those places. This week the practice, has been the experiment and is like, What would it look like, for us to see other people as blessed? Even when they're doing things that we don't love or even if it's just my kids or whatever, we see them as blessed. They're being made whole, all week long. I don't see people that way. Generally. That's not my normal way of seeing people. Mike, do you have thoughts even just on the word blessed?
Mike: Oh Man. I have thoughts. I mean, it's one of those words that's so cliche like love. When you understand what it is, it's the most powerful of concepts but it's buried under mounds and mounds of cliche and overuse. And I love that you're rethinking about words like that. So we use the word blessed in so many different ways. I say a blessing, I look for a blessing, I ask for a blessing, I bless somebody, I bless God, God blesses me. God bless the USA. I mean, we just use that word all over the place. And what I really like that you're tapping into is that, there are circumstantial aspects to being blessed. There are times when God blesses somebody with something. But the way Jesus uses is the word, it's a conferring of divine favor upon the unlikely.
Tim: Huh.
Mike: So his most famous usage of blessed, and there are two Hebrew words and two Greek words that correspond to each other.
Tim: Of course.
Mike: That have to do with the Amen.
Tim: Of course they do.
Emmoe: Is it?
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Tim: We wouldn't go over to the Latin but if you want to go over those that's also super great.
Mike: Well, no. One of the Hebrew words is Barack and I don't know that I'm saying it correctly but if you put a ["kh 00:06:10]" on it...
Tim: It sounds good.
Mike: And that word. The word in a noun form means knee. But to a verb, in the verb form, it means to kneel. And so to bless. To be blessed or to bless in that instance, is to receive praise or to give it. And it's a worship word. To bless. So the Jews have this incredible practice called Berakhot, which is the practice of blessing God for things that we all take for granted. I bless God for the ability to use the restroom.
Mike: They have a blessing for that. They have a blessing for food that is prepared well and bread that comes from the earth and wine that comes from grapes. And it's the idea that we're the constant recipients of blessing. So our response is this constant blessing of God for all of the things that we enjoy. But would normally, take for granted. There's blessings for rainbows and blessings for thunderstorms. I mean, and it's, so common and mundane. It's this beautiful recapturing of the word, applied to God.
Tim: How different is blessed and thankful?
Mike: They're connected.
Tim: Okay.
Mike: But to bless, to kneel before God, whether in attitude or in action is the response of gratitude. For sure. Gratitude's a different word. The other Hebrew word just really quick, means to speak well of. And so I can bless my children by speaking well of them. And when you get into the Greek words, which we don't need to cover but they correspond. When Jesus blesses the people at the beginning of the sermon on the Mount, he is not saying their circumstances are advantageous. The people he's blessing or the poor spirit, the mourners, the persecuted, the peacemakers, the merciful. He's conferring, divine favor, he's announcing divine favor upon them. And almost in spite of their circumstances. The punch of the beatitudes is that, these aren't the people that the Jews would've normally called blessed. We all know this.
Tim: Right.
Mike: Blessed were circumstantially blessed. We have some instances of rabbinic prayers later on, in rabbinic literature were, God thank you that I'm not a woman, a Gentile or a slave. And the idea to be blessed was to be a Jewish man of some means. And that was what it was to be blessed. Jesus, radically redefines that. But he confers that identity upon people who, you would never have looked at and said, "Those are really great circumstances." And so what Jesus does, is he opens up the exact possibility you're exploring. Which is that, the blessing of God, the favor of God is possible beyond whether I'm having a good day or not.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: So we've Americanized the word, we've individualated the word and we've turned it into a consumer word. Where I'm blessed if I'm happy. Interestingly, the other word for blessed in the old Testament, is found in Psalm one. Blessed is the one who does not walk with scoffers or in the way of sinners. That word actually, the root of it, comes from another word that has to do with, if you're lost, but find a sign to tell you you're going the right way, You are blessed. You are happy, you are. It's not just general happiness from circumstance but it's a vindication of your way of life.
Mike: So the idea would be, if I'm on a trail, I'm hopelessly lost but I find out a marker that shows me I'm going in the right direction, there's a sense of relief and joy that I feel that I've been affirmed I'm traveling the right way. Morally, there's this sense of walking the right path. There's the joy of walking the right path because that path will be vindicated. Humility doesn't always taste good when you're a living it.
Tim: Right.
Mike: But it will be vindicated in the way that God will bless it. And I know that's a whole lot but the idea is that, it is far less to do with circumstances and much more to do with the identity that we carry into a life as opposed to something that gives us or doesn't.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: I think you thought I said blessed. I said bereft.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Mike: Yes. I'm good with bereft too. I got a lot on that.
Tim: How does this look as weird? Sorry. I thought that was really funny in my ear.
Emmoe: That's going to haunt me tomorrow.
Tim: Yeah. Sorry, Emmoe.
Emmoe: 2:30 PM. I'm going to laugh. It's just stuck in there.
Tim: Tomorrow you'll laugh.
Emmoe: It's stuck in there. It's so good.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: [inaudible 00:11:00].
Tim: So how does this play when we're seeing somebody else as blessed?
Mike: Well, so often, we will look at people in Paul's words from a worldly point of view. And so we will use, and what he means is just that status markers and circumstantial markers that are common to the way that we evaluate things and what we call normal. So to look at somebody as blessed, is to look beyond their circumstances.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: And it's to look beyond their outward appearance or their affiliations or labels.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: And to not only want to see divine favor upon them but to act in ways that are congruent with its already existing in them. You know what I mean? So if I'm blessing my children, I'm calling something out that already exists. I'm not conveying something new. I'm seeing something and recognizing it. So when I bless God, what I'm saying is, God, I recognize you are the author of every good and perfect gift. So I bless you in response for this. When I'm doing that with my kids, I'm seeing, this is true of my child and I'm calling it forth. I'm calling it out.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: To see other people as blessed means. I'm not looking at them in circumstances, whether it's, Hey, they're doing great or they're not doing great. And I'm not looking at them based on whatever labels, economic, racial, any of those things. Political. What I'm doing instead is, I believe divine favor already rest upon them. And I'm trying to identify it so I can call it out. I'm calling something out that already exists.
Tim: Calling something out that already exists. I mean, think about that as far as blessing somebody else. What would that look like? For us to actually call out what already exists in the people around us? Just think of the repercussions of such a practice as this. Who needs your blessing this week?
Mike: So I cultivate a radar.
Tim: Give me an example of what that radar looks like. As you're walking through your day or with your kids or what is the radar that, the invitation that we are invited into?
Mike: So for me, one of the prayers I pray regularly is, "God, I want to be an agent of blessing and kindness." And for me, I naturally do that verbally. For my wife, she naturally does that acts of service. My prayer is that I would be awake enough to see the good, not the happy and not the positive but the good in situations with other people so that I'm able to draw attention to those things.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: Right? So it could be as simple as, "Hey, Moi, I really noticed that this was hard for you. And I'm just so proud that you stepped into that." And it's just letting her know that she was seen and known. And literally, you've blessed. You've bent your knee to words her, to give her a gift of calling something out that's already true of her.
Tim: Wow.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whoa.
Mike: You know what I mean?
Emmoe: Yeah.
Mike: And so with our kids, our spouses. And obviously, the people it's hardest to deal with, are the people closest to us who far more attentive to the failures and disappointments that they're provoking. But even to sit in a restaurant or in service industries and to be a person of kindness and blessing, I mean, so many of these disciplines, Tim and you know this better than anybody, they require us to be awake and not sleep walking.
Tim: Yes.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Mike: So your whole 10,000 minute crusade is designed to keep us from sleep walking through life.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: And the practices are just ways of staying awake.
Tim: Yes. That's so well said.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: So when we're oriented to somebody in blessing, I'm not looking for the bad in them. I'm looking for the good believing that God is at work in them.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: Believing that God loves them beyond I ever could. What I ever could. That God is attentive to them.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: And that I have, whether tiny or in big ways, the opportunity to bring and call forth blessing by just recognizing what's happening. I'm not bringing anything to the table. That's one way that we would understand blessing maybe, differently than some religious traditions. I'm not conferring something that's absent. I'm calling forth something that's already there.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: You know what I mean?
Tim: Yeah. So that makes a ton of sense. As we're blessing God, that's what we're doing.
Mike: Yeah. It's not like we're saying, "Hey, God, I really want you to do this." No. It's, "God, you are this." And so I call attention to it.
Tim: Or thank you for this.
Mike: Yes.
Tim: It's thank you for who you are, as the blessing that would.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I mean the ultimate blessing to God's people in the scriptures is God's presence. But for me, and that's where blessing gets super interesting, because for me, blessing is the circumstance that comes from God favoring my right way of life.
Tim: Right.
Mike: And so we want to war against that by saying, "No. No. No. Blessing is something far more important and deep than that conception."
Tim: So can anybody here think of a time when you have been blessed by somebody else in that way? Or that you were able to see somebody else's blessed or bless them in this way. Even in this past season or past week?
Mike: I mean, I have one that's really uncommon and I hesitate to share it because it's out of the course of normal life but it was something that was just so powerful. Because the interesting bit about blessing is of course, you receive it when you give it. And so...
Tim: Explain that.
Mike: Well, to bless another is to be blessed. I mean, the blessing of my children is to take a step into the formation of me being the person who blesses and who is aware of those sorts of things. And so not only am I formed by it but there's a sense of that second Hebrew word of walking in the right path. I'm almost rewarded by blessing. Not circumstantially but simply by enjoying the good that has been put out into the world and another's reception of it.
Tim: Yeah. It just makes everything better.
Mike: Yes.
Tim: Your whole world becomes better when I bless somebody else?
Mike: Yes. Yes.
Tim: As a blesser and the blessee
Mike: Absolutely, yes. Yes. And the most profound moments of my life were at times when I was seeking to bless another but there was something that happened in that chemistry of blessing. Where I came away far more joyful than whoever the recipient was. You know what I mean? It's the chemistry of the kingdom. Where good multiplies in on itself. And so it never returns void. So anyway, I mean, there was a time when I was... Sacred space is important to me. So Disney world, Epcot is a place that's very sacred to me. It's weird. I know but I will go there for two or three days by myself and have the most incredibly... Don't laugh at me.
Tim: No. no. I was laughing at Chris. Keep going.
Emmoe: Because Chris was laughing at me.
Tim: And so it's...
Chris: I was just trying to think with kids, how you got three days by yourself anywhere.
Mike: That's true. That's true. That's because my wife's a freaking rockstar.
Chris: Yeah, I've no doubt.
Mike: But she'll let me go down and I will take a journal and I'll just walk, I'll just walk the park. I don't know, walk 15, 16 miles and I'll just sit and reflect. And I was in one of those moments and I'd asked God that morning, "Hey, would you pay attention to me today? And would you show me you're paying attention to me today." Which is a weird prayer, but I'd love to share my faith. And I don't mean evangelize but I mean, share my faith with someone today. So I'm awake all day just saying, "Okay Lord, what? Where are you?" Nothing. I mean, it's dry, distant, silent, nothing's happening. Fine, fine, fine. I sit in this bench out of the way. And these two girls probably 18, 19 show up and there are many open benches around.
Mike: Of course, they say, "Hey, can we sit next to you?" I'm like, "Absolutely." We begin to talk. And one of them, it's her birthday, and she's there with her best friend. And I just start asking about birthday plans and she begins to just talk about how she's not at home because her parents really don't have time for her and aren't interested in her. And so Disney's been a place for her to escape and she comes with her best friend because her best friend is the only one that's really attentive to her and paying attention and whatever. And as they're talking, I mean, the voice in the head is just going, "Hey, hey, here you go." And so I just start thinking, "Okay, well, that's cool." And we can keep talking and you can see she's comimg from this really tragic broken background. Her best friend is from the same background. And it's just awful that she is not acknowledged by her parents at all on this day.
Mike: And so I had, I rarely carry cash, but I had some cash and I just do the dumbest weirdest thing. But I'm just like, "Hey on behalf of the parents that I'm sure you wish you had, I'd love to treat you to a birthday dinner."
Mike: And she just bursts out sobbing. And I couldn't even tell the story without sobbing. And then I ask her, if I could just pray. And again, I don't normally do this but I'm like, "I'd love to just pray a blessing over you." So I just pray this thing. And these are not religious people and they're not whatever. But it was the most powerful. I literally, after that, about half an hour moment, I went over to a different bench and I just wept for probably 20 minutes.
Chris: Wow.
Mike: It was one of the most, I don't know, powerful moments. And here's this image of being a spiritual parent. An agent of blessing. And it was so powerful, unlocked all the stuff in me. And I know that's a dramatic story but it unlocked my imagination in ways that still resound.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: So when I'm praying, I'm asking, how do I bless, be an agent of blessing to wife, kids, family, strangers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's what it looks like for me. It looks like the radar, which is just the cultivation of, "Are you awake?
Tim: Awake. Yeah.
Mike: Am I paying attention? Because I believe they're burning bushes all around us. And I'm just not, I'm too sleepy to see them. And then it's the courage at times to do the dumb, weird dorky thing.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: Which is to try to act as an agent of creative goodness.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: Not because I have anything to offer because I'm just calling out what's there.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Chris: Yeah.
Mike: You know what I mean? So it's not a savior thing. It's not. I didn't come to that girl's rescue. I mean, she rescued me. I mean, that's the truth of the story. You know what I mean?
Tim: Yeah. It's like what people say, "Oh, I've been working with students and I'm way more blessed than they are." That whole thing it's like, "Oh, that's actually could be true. Not just a cliche."
Mike: Yes, exactly. That's the alchemy of the kingdom. To be an agent of blessing in that way is utterly transformative. At least it's been for me. So I don't obviously do it, well often or whatever.
Tim: Yeah. But when we're sober enough, when we're awake enough, when we're aware enough, we can see what's actually happening.
Mike: Yeah. I'm looking around believing my father is always at work and that there are things to call out and point out. Even right here, that are worthy of being noted. Either God word or towards the other person. And obviously it's the same thing. But when Paul says to pray without ceasing, that's what he's talking about. He not talking about this conscious stream of sentences.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: Right. That I'm uttering all throughout the day but it's this posture where I'm just constantly blessing. And it wasn't until I read about that Jewish practice, that it really... that was brought home for me. The idea that you bless God for every little damn thing. So Tim, one of the things I love that you do, that I've picked up is, God, thanks for another day. Thanks for waking me up this morning. That's just a way of staying awake.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: Right.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: None of that is guaranteed or promised. And so I just sit in recognition and I bless God. I bend my knee towards God in acknowledgement that today's a gift.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: I mean, gosh, it takes even the idea of us being blessed even more. That we're blessed by God. I mean, that he's actually calling out the things that he's already made in us.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: And we are being awakening to who we really are.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: All day long.
Mike: Exactly.
Tim: Over and over and over. And then we get to then go be the blessing because we've been blessed to other people.
Mike: Well, and what we are is blessers. I mean, that's the thing that's so... By calling out good and kindness in others, That's the blessing that's coming back. Is that, that's being called out of me.
Chris: Right.
Mike: And so yeah, when God will look at Mary and say, "Greetings you who are highly favored."
Tim: Right.
Mike: She didn't have to do anything to get that.
Tim: Right.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: You know what I mean? That's who she is already. And that's just being noted.
Chris: I mean, do you guys have thoughts?
Emmoe: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm reflecting. I'm going through my past and seeing how much I really have been blessed by people. I just thought, Men, I'm so lucky to have found someone who wants to mentor me. But to think about it as like, there's someone who's calling me as my true self constantly. And these people came in times where I was totally sleepwalking or in moments where I was like, "Man, I just don't know what direction to take." And to see that God was constantly blessing me through people who were looking to bless. I'm like, "What the heck? I just thought I got lucky." And I had mentioned it before. Just being blessed made me feel uncomfortable because it felt like I owed something.
Emmoe: But to just have this moment now, to look back and like, "Man, it was just also them wanting to be blessers." I don't know, it's just doing something to me right now. I have to be honest.
Chris: Yeah.
Emmoe: It's humbling me. And I think too, I also teach and it's easy for me to just be in a kid's corner. But to know that I'm blessing them by telling them the things I see in them. I'm like, "oh, maybe blessings are around all the time." And I just thought I was having a good day. And so I said something nice.
Tim: I was trying to be nice.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: So much bigger. It's like, Man.
Mike: Well, we've reduced it to a love language.
Emmoe: Right.
Mike: Or words of affirmation. And it's like, Yeah. But in the Bible, words have spiritual power. I mean, I personally, and I can give you a verse for this. But I personally think that in the fullness of the kingdom, we won't work. We'll just speak. I mean, how does God create? How does Jesus curse a fig tree? I mean, he just talks. He's not doing anything. I mean, he's doing something but he's just talking.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: And so part of the reason, prayer and pray, all of that matter is it's training us to use powerful words well.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: And so blessing is one of the ways we learned to use powerful words for good and not for evil. And that's why slander, malice, divisions, gossiping. That's why all that spoken so harshly against. Is because those things have power beyond just, "Hey, they hurt my feelings." They're spiritual power imbued in blessings or cursing.
Tim: I mean, yeah. I was going to say the other side of that is those are actual curses.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Mike: Yes.
Tim: And that is the Yin-Yang of blessing and curses.
Mike: That's right. So we can all think of the times when our parents said something or our friends or there was this thing said of us that was life defining. And that was a cursing. We're still overcoming that. So yeah. I mean, the importance of speech is far beyond a self-esteem. Man, there is a world of spiritual power out there in our words. So blessing becomes part of a greater training to use powerful words well. That's why asking is the rule of the kingdom. We have to use words to accomplish work but we can't do it by ourselves. And so asking becomes this rule of the kingdom. Where in prayer, we're doing a lot more than just talking.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah. This whole thing makes me think about just the design of all of this. And the intentionality that God had when he created this, was not that we're in this alone and that, if we're in the process of us coming whole and being blessed is through blessing and helping other people, then become whole and being blessed. It's blowing my mind. Just the feedback loop that, that does if we're doing it right. And then in the community that, that builds. And I think seeing this from your angle, Mike is blowing it up into a bigger picture for me. We've been talking a lot about trying to see ourselves this whole and it starting there because we have gosh, so many issues with that. I do. But knowing that the process of even being, or seeing ourselves as whole is helping other people do the same.
Mike: Totally. And that their wholeness then helps us.
Chris: Right.
Mike: And you can see why the Bible hates self righteousness. Because you can't bless if your self righteous. You can't bless and judge at the same time.
Chris: Right.
Mike: Right? I mean, it's an orientation.
Tim: This even gives a bigger meaning to the word humble. So a a right view of oneself.
Mike: Yes.
Tim: Humility. You cannot bless if you don't have a right view of one's self.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: That's right.
Tim: Man. All these is getting deeper.
Mike: Exactly. Yeah. If I'm walking in my shame, I won't bless because it's their responses than a verdict on me. And if I'm walking in my ego, I won't bless because I'm the one looking to be blessed.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: Totally.
Mike: That sweet spot of like, "Hey, I'm not coming to anyone's rescue. I'm not anyone's savior."
Chris: Wow.
Mike: But to just simply note what is good and what is shalloming in the world and what is flourishing in the world. I mean, that's just the same as, you go to a beautiful work of art and you just have to share that. You have to take a picture and share it. You just can't enjoy that by yourself. And so I think it's the same impulse. And we see that God, I mean the first pages of the scriptures are all about God blessing. Already blessed them and said increase the number Abram. Five times he's blessed. I mean, this is God's orientation towards us which is the coolest bit of this.
Tim: So a question that just comes up is, are we being made a whole or are we already whole? And we were waking up to our wholes?
Mike: That's so good. Timothy. It is. I got to find this passage. Because it's both.
Tim: We got all day.
Mike: And well, salvation is three tenses in the new Testament. Paul do talks about us having been saved are being saved and the fact that we will be saved. So our salvation is now and not yet the same way that everything in the kingdom is. Let me find this Hebrews passage. Here it is.
Tim: I found it too.
Emmoe: Is it a race?
Tim: Yeah. So found it a little bit before you but it's fine. Go ahead.
Mike: So it's Hebrews 10:14.
Tim: Hebrews 10:14. That's right. Yeah, that was the one I was thinking about. Is that the one you was thinking of? Okay.
Mike: Yeah.
Tim: Good.
Mike: And he says, "For by one sacrifice, he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." So think of all the tenses in that. For by one sacrifice in the past, he has past tense made perfect forever. Those who are being present tense made holy.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: Wow.
Mike: So we're growing into our identity. In the same way when you first get married, you're a husband or a wife before you know what it is to be a husband or wife. You grow. Marriage actually grows you into what you already are.
Chris: Right.
Mike: So the way Christian formation and identity works, is that you are declared certain things because of your union with Christ. And then you become them, as you walk with Christ. So that's why you'll hear, put off and put on, old nature, new nature. You're image is being transformed to the... I mean, those are all statements that are saying, "Listen, you've been made perfect forever but you're now being made holy." So Paul, he will start all his letters by calling out the holy ones. He will call them the saints, the [inaudible 00:33:04]. And he'll start there and then rebuke them for all sorts of nonsense. So both are true.
Tim: Right.
Mike: Right. They are the holy ones but they're not conforming. So Paul in Ephesians, he says this beautifully is like, "live a life fitting to the calling you already have." And so the invitation are, in a moral formation isn't to do good so I get blessed.
Tim: Right.
Mike: Or do good to get divine favor. But it's to become who I already am. That's exactly what you're saying. So I am whole and being made whole simultaneously.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: And so what blessing does then, is it helps me be oriented again around to the fact that I am being made whole. Instead of others noticing all my faults, all the false self I have to posture and all of those sorts of things. And the poser, now I can sit and rest in, "Ah, okay. There is this real thing happening in me that somebody else has noticed." So now though obviously, flattery. We're not just talking about empty words.
Tim: Yes. Right. Because that can [inaudible 00:34:12] us.
Mike: Yeah, totally. I can just encourage just to be encouraged.
Chris: Yeah.
Emmoe: Totally.
Chris: That's not encouraging, that's a blessing. Blessing is obviously, without agenda and regardless of the reaction of the recipient. So if I'm blessing, like I said, out of shame, I can just be doing that to try to cultivate a response.
Tim: Yeah, or out of ego. Which I say [crosstalk 00:34:32].
Mike: Or out of ego say same thing. Yes.
Tim: So good.
Mike: Yeah. Tim, you're so good looking today.
Tim: Yes.
Mike: And it's just like, and...?
Chris: Tim, do you get this at shows where if you're playing a band will come up to you. Be like, "Oh, sounded so good." And then you feel obligated to return the favor? But I can't lie. So I'll be like, "Oh man, you guys really went up there." I'll say something really obvious, "Like you guys did that."
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: "Like way to be up there."
Tim: Well, Mike and I Hero Stan and Dacoit would always say, "Man, that was something else."
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: That was unreal.
Chris: I had a guy that he'd be like, "That's the most recent set we've ever played."
Mike: Yeah. One of my favorite, Tim, Tim and his expressions is, of all the transitions that was one of them.
Chris: Yeah. That was one.
Mike: No. what was that? Or that wasn't one of them? What? How do yo say to get the producer to go.
Tim: No. That was [inaudible 00:35:31], [Alikizar 00:33:02]. That's it I mean, because I've one of my favorite or the worst intros ever I've had on a radio interview. I had it. And also I had it on a live like I was opening arena thing. They're like, "Hey, this is Tim Timmons. And he has cancer listen up." That was the intro.
Emmoe: No.
Tim: And I got up there and I was also like, "What a D ouche. I mean, that was so stupid. And so I just said, well heard a lot of great introductions. And that was not one of them.
Emmoe: That was a rebuke. Those are necessary too.
Mike: Yes they are.
Tim: I mean, and yeah, I did that in front of, there were good 10,000 people that I just did it. I was like, "You are an idiot." And I'm okay to call that out. I will curse. No, you know what? I called it out at him. No, I don't know what I did. Who knows.
Mike: That was a cursing. Nope. That was just stating the obvious. That was amazing.
Emmoe: It is how was it is.
Tim: This past week? I called my old girlfriend who she was my girlfriend all through high school and into college. And...
Chris: Same digits?
Mike: No, they were digits.
Tim: I didn't call her. Sorry. We Instagramed and I asked her for her folks number. If I could just call her folks for some reason, I thought about them. Just with being a dad now and thinking about my kids and going through some tough stuff. Even just with my family right now. I was thinking about how powerful their presence was in my life growing up. Because one of the questions that our friend Kevin asks all the time is, who was the warmth in your home growing up.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: And I just thought about this question going, oh, well there's a season where my house was not warm. I love my parents so much. And they were divorcing and it was just a rough season. But what was warm, was their house, my girlfriend's house and her folks. And so I just called and I just got to say, "Thank you, you did this for me and for so many of us." And she's crying on the phone, the mom's crying on the phone. And it was like, "Oh my gosh, what a gift that I just got to receive from doing this?" And this just even makes that further that it's not just affirming but it's really this blessing of saying this is who God is in you and what you're representing and what he's made you to be. I mean, it's just so power powerful.
Mike: It's so cool.
Tim: So I guess as that's so cool, we move forward. People just think about what that could look like in this next week. I know we're going to jump into our next practice, but that's just so exciting. This is beautiful.
Mike: Yeah.
Tim: And Mike, you do embody this. I love hearing that, that's your prayer because that is something that I've already affirmed you before we started this thing about that. But that's something that you just do and I've been a recipient of. And I just want to say, thank you. Well done. So for all of us, that is the great invitation.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: For this next season. So we are blessed and then we get to go bless. Mike, thank you for being with us.
Mike: What an honor. Thank you guys.
Tim: Mike, now we'll go to do some questions and just make fun of you.
Mike: Perfect. Perfect.
Emmoe: Yay.
Tim: So before we jump into these dumb questions with Mike and it is very funny by the way. I just want to promote his podcast. It's called the Vox VOX podcast. It is so good and it is so profound and challenging. And so I think that you will dig it and it'll encourage you a ton. If you want to learn more about 10,000 minutes, please go to 10,000minutes.com. If you want to get the free text messages, you can just text 10K. One, zero K to the number 55678. So the number is 55678 and text one, zero K. And we'll give you free encouraging text messages each week. All right. This will be fine. Get ready? Well, Mike, thanks for being on this. You were something else today?
Emmoe: Yeah.
Mike: Totally. Totally.
Tim: Of all the guests that we've had. You're one of them.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Mike: You're the most recent.
Tim: Wow. Mike, we're going to jump into 10,000 questions. This is like a rapid quick fire.
Mike: Let's do it. Let's do it Timothy.
Tim: Okay. Let's see how you do.
Mike: It's like family feud. The fast money. Yes.
Tim: Let's do it.
Mike: Yes. It's just, there's no money.
Emmoe: Lack of.
Tim: Okay. What is one thing you've always wanted to do?
Mike: Go to the opening ceremony of Olympic games.
Emmoe: Same.
Tim: Same?
Emmoe: Yeah. Tennis. I mean, let's go.
Tim: Tennis.
Mike: Okay. Apparently let's [crosstalk 00:39:40].
Tim: [inaudible 00:39:40].
Emmoe: Say less. Say less.
Tim: Okay. Any pet peeves?
Mike: Slow drivers in the fast lane.
Tim: You are so quick. This is so great. You are such a, you know what? Your family must be in stitches. Okay. Is that the best? How often does your wife get that? You guys must laugh all that time at home. And she's like actually no.
Mike: Yes.
Chris: I don't its funny though
Tim: Okay. What is the thing you're most afraid of?
Mike: I would say being swallowed by a boa constrictor.
Chris: Wow. That's a big boa.
Emmoe: Whoa.
Tim: Is that true?
Mike: No. Not at all. The thing I would be most afraid of would be looking back on life and regretting not doing the most important things. Well.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: Okay.
Mike: And then boa constrict your number two.
Emmoe: Right. No. I forgot about that one for a second.
Mike: Are you scared of snakes?
Tim: Like does [inaudible 00:40:35]. Because everybody Mike comes and stays at my house. Everyone once in a while. And at hotel Timmons and Noah Just got a snake.
Mike: He's got a Python.
Emmoe: All Right.
Tim: Does that make you nervous?
Mike: It does not.
Tim: If it was in your bed?
Mike: I woke up with a scorpion in a sleeping bag once.
Tim: Shut your face.
Mike: And that one was the one that got me. Yes.
Tim: Okay. So here's my second question. What's the craziest thing you've woken up with in your bed?
Mike: A scorpion.
Tim: Scorpion Wow.
Chris: Let's sit that one out of the park please.
Tim: Yes.
Chris: Load it up.
Tim: Okay. What's your least favorite beverage?
Mike: La Croix.
Tim: All right.
Chris: Gosh.
Emmoe: You should hurt a bunch of people.
Chris: That was my breakfast so long.
Emmoe: He just wounded bunch of people.
Chris: I'm mad but I'm not anymore.
Tim: It's becoming a thing. You're either for it or against it.
Emmoe: It's true.
Mike: Always, there's a line. There is a line in the sand now my friends. I'm sorry. It's not masks, it's not vaccines it's La Croix.
Emmoe: It's true.
Tim: Well, we just had a little joy ride with Mike the other night with a bunch of buddies and we introduced Mike to some hot beverage and I don't...
Mike: Oh my goodness. This guy.
Tim: It was spicy beverage as in whiskey. So I thought you might say that.
Mike: Whiskey's a thing in Tennessee you guys.
Tim: It is a thing.
Mike: No. That's serious.
Emmoe: We take it Seriously out here.
Mike: I had to do La Croix though. Just because you were talking about it before we went on there. So many of my attempts are just, I want Tim to laugh. I just want him to laugh.
Emmoe: I just want to bless him with laughter.
Tim: So many. So we had Mike try it. Basically, for the first time and we gave him some real good whiskey. And the guys were all telling him what to do and how to sip it. How to smell it. I have a good video of that.
Chris: Just throw it back.
Mike: Yeah. You know, I've drank many things and that one of them.
Tim: And that was one of them.
Emmoe: Oh man.
Tim: All right. What do you think of when I say fruit?
Mike: Basket.
Tim: All day. Okay. What does your name mean?
Mike: It means one who is like L or God.
Tim: Is it really?
Mike: Yeah. Michael.
Emmoe: Gosh.
Mike: One who was like L.
Tim: What's your last name mean? What's Erre mean.
Mike: It was shortened to customs. It was something Austrian and Swiss and so we have no idea what the original was. It was just E R R E at customs.
Tim: What could it have been?
Mike: It was probably something magnificent. Like Schwetz [Andvauzer 00:42:53].
Tim: And they just took the er at the end?
Mike: They Just took the er, It was like, "Oh, let's just keep [inaudible 00:42:58] about that.
Emmoe: So lets Keep the best part.
Chris: Just a word It's fine.
Tim: Mike Schwetz Andvauzer. Who wouldn't call him her Erre.
Mike: Yeah. And then the story is, my grandparents lived near lake Erre. They didn't know how to pronounce it. And so there you go.
Tim: Wait, wait, wait.
Mike: Gosh, right?
Tim: Yes.
Mike: I'm an onion. I onion Timmons.
Tim: Who's your favorite bald guy in this room?
Mike: Oh my Lord. Tim Timmons by far.
Tim: No.
Mike: Timmons has been rocking the bald beard glasses look with so much authority that it's branded. It's his brand now.
Tim: You know what? This is a blessing.
Mike: I mean, it's one thing just to be good looking but then it's another thing to make-
Tim: T-shirts?
Mike: Yeah. T-shirts and mugs.
Chris: I'm just hoping I can grow a beard before I'm bald.
Tim: Mike, it's almost as if he said that as if bald was bad.
Mike: Yeah.
Tim: It was like a native.
Chris: No, no. I just don't want to be all bald.
Mike: Why?
Tim: What's got weird.
Chris: No, no, no.
Tim: Sorry, Mike.
Chris: I need a beard. I just feel like I do.
Mike: I'm just blessing.
Tim: Yeah. You're just blessing. Thank you for blessing us hashtag Blessing.
Mike: I am blessed hashtag.
Tim: Okay. So here's the last section of this podcast. And thankfully Mike agreed to stay on with us for a few minutes, but it's previewing the experiment for this next week. And this one just so happens to be blessing our enemies. Mike, you got me thoughts on praying for your enemies.
Mike: No note they have to be looked at his watch first. Before he has let the record show. He knew Erre. He knew Erre could go off for the next 10 minutes on this. And so he checked the watch. He was like, "Well, we've gone from rapid fire to [inaudible 00:44:33]"
Tim: What makes somebody an enemy?
Mike: Oh my goodness. So Jesus' audience. Would've heard enemies very, very specifically. And the creative responses he invites them to embody in response to their enemies are ridiculously amazing. In other words, they're not returning evil for evil but they're not being passive either. And so they're actually in a shame. Like when you're required by a Roman soldier to carry his kit for a mile, that was a requirement. It was 1,000 paces. They could compel you legally to do that. That's just not a hypothetical scenario.
Mike: To offer to go another, would be shaming to the Roman soldier. And so it would take you as the victim and place you as an equal next to the one that was trying to humiliate you. The turning other cheek bit, there's a deep practice of slapping. Believe it or not. The turning of the other cheek is an insult. This is not violence. This is an insult. So the way you would insult an inferior is that you would use your right hand. You would never use your left hand. You would use your right hand and you would slap somebody on their right cheek. With the back of your hand, you would give them a backhand slap. And that's how superiors would insult inferiors. Is they would be a backhanded slap. An open-handed slap would be the way that equals, that peers would insult each other. It was still degrading it was still insulting.
Mike: But backhanded was just reserved for slaves and children. But an open hand was what you would use with a social peer. The context is someone backhands your cheek. When he says turn to them the other also, to be hit again, they would have to hit you with their open Palm on the other cheek.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: As an equal. So Jesus is engaging in creative honor shame practices that don't require passivity but at the same time, aren't returning evil for evil. So loving enemies is this very creative. It's not having affection for them. It's this creative responding to the evil they put into the world that actually draws attention to it in the same way. MOK we see these pictures and video images of dogs being let loose upon these persons and it stirs something in us.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: Jesus is operating in much the same way. So love of enemies isn't affection for them. It's not, I like them, but it is creative responses to evil that don't further evil. But demand that the offender treat you as an equal in terms of status. And it's fascinating, fascinating stuff.
Tim: Wow. So what does it mean to pray for your enemies?
Mike: So to pray for them is one of the creative responses.
Tim: Or is it bless them or pray for them?
Mike: Well, it's both. He says both. Bless those who persecute you, pray for your enemies. So what do I want to use my words to do to my enemies? I want to hurt them. I want to punish them. I want to get back at them. I want to deepen the wounds. It's the opposite of blessing. And so to pray for them is teaching me to use words in ways that have power in ways that don't bring harm to them. And so to pray for enemies, to love them, to bless them. All of those are saying the same things in different ways. Those are concrete actions to take that are creative in the face of evil, in the face of enemy. That are status sharing and could be shaming. So praying for enemies is then, holding them before God and calling down divine favor upon them or noting divine ever upon them.
Mike: Instead of using my words to hurt or harm and whatever else. And very often the prayer, at least in my experience, the prayers start out very small and shallow.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: Like, "God, I pray for this." And I name the person and that's it. Then they grow into a more full orbed, in the same way that I see them. And I go from seeing them as just their offense to seeing them as a full Lord person. My prayers echo that growth too.
Tim: Yeah.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: And I've seen personally that practice absolutely transform my view towards people. Absolutely. It's one of the most important things that we could do. And it's the distinctive mark of the kingdom. So only here in terms of enemy love, does Jesus say, "Then you'll be sons of the father.
Tim: Right?
Mike: Which means you will be like the father, everyone, every tax collectors love the people who love them.
Tim: Right.
Mike: Nothing distinctive about that. But it's this cross shaped practice that is uniquely Christian and it's one of the closest ways we can embody Jesus likeness. To take someone with whom we have animosity and try to use our words to bring Shalom. My words towards my enemies, want to hurt them, here my words are trying to bless them.
Tim: Is it, I think it's Romans 12. Is it? When you're heaping coals?
Mike: Yes. You give them something to drink, give them something to eat, show hospitality to your enemy and you will not only do something to you obviously, you'll do something to them.
Tim: Yeah. So, I mean, this week we're actually going to be praying for enemies. That is-
Mike: I love it.
Tim: ... a practice that we are going to be going for. Do you have any thoughts? What would that look like, to pray for enemies this week?
Mike: Well, let's put blessing and praying for enemies together.
Tim: Yeah.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: So let's bless our enemies. And one of the ways obviously, is through prayer but what if there was something creative that could be done beyond that? And I just don't want to close that off. So to pray blessing for my enemy would be to recognize God's love, attention, care for them that he's not defined them by their worst act or the act that has hurt me. And to stand outside of that hurt and invoke the name of Jesus to call down blessing upon them. Regardless, of whether or not they repent or they ask forgiveness or wherever reconciled. And what that does, is that brings me into kingdom dynamics. Regardless of whether or not they join me there. It brings me into kingdom dynamics that allow for me to be free from the hurt in ways I couldn't be otherwise.
Tim: Yeah. I love that.
Mike: It's one of those things where I've had seasons. Where I've been so hurt or so angry that the only way through was to pray blessing over them. Because there was no way I could get there myself. No way.
Tim: That's really good. It hit me years ago when, we've talked about this so many times, that the good news is actually, this availability of the kingdom, not the thing we've always thought it was. It's about seeking first, the kingdom of God, not my kingdom or women your queendoms. So that was this, aha moment for me, like, "Oh my kingdom, isn't the most important thing here to defend." So every time I get offended it's or hurt.
Mike: So good.
Tim: I've asked the question often. So when was the last time you got offended? And everybody thinks of their thing. I said, "So who's kingdom or queendom was threatened.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: Yeah.
Emmoe: And it's always mine. Always.
Tim: Always. And it's just this idea of, "Okay." So even in that moment, when I'm praying for my enemies, I'm going, "Okay, I want to bless them." Because that changes my heart in the midst of it.
Mike: I was reflecting and you asked me that question once I was defensive in a meeting and you're like, "Hey, so what kingdom was threatened there?" And it was a such a powerful question because you boiled it down to what it was. It was, I felt like there was something I had to protect. And when we get in that space, it is impossible to bless.
Tim: So true.
Chris: Gosh.
Mike: Bless only comes out of a generous, its scarcity or abundance mindset. So it only comes out of an abundance place.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: And for me, things can be zero some game. So if you win, I lose. So blessing or even blessing enemies is getting me out of that way of thinking. But that's so good, Tim. The idea that we're agents of kingdom renewal. And not just for other people but we're participating with the spirit for our own sakes as well. And bro, I mean, calling you out, this has been one of your core practices. This has been ever since I've known you, this is the thing. And if you're going to pick one, this is the most distinctly Christian one to pick.
Tim: It's a hard one to, yeah. It's a hard one.
Mike: Yeah. I mean, that was what was so distinctive. Father forgive them, is they're nailing me to the cross.
Tim: Right.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mike: That's the the picture.
Tim: Gosh. So good. So people this week that is the invitation. Try that out, practice it. It's an experiment. That's the whole point of the experiment. This is our hypothesis thinking maybe, they will not change. But I pretty much guarantee that our hearts will be changed this week.
Emmoe: Yeah
Chris: That's exactly right.
Mike: Yeah. All of this, is done independent of their response.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: And one of the heart checks for me is, am I engaging in what could be perceived as a really holy and righteous thing? Am I doing it to get something? And often the answer is yeah. Absolutely. I want them to see what they've done. I want them to... And I take a posture that isn't what a blessing it's actually manipulating.
Tim: Yes. I'm sure we'll even find that this week. Man, I tried to do this but I was actually trying to get back at them.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: And heat burning coals on their head because I was so pissed about whatever they did.
Emmoe: Yes.
Mike: Totally.
Tim: But what's the way of the kingdom?
Mike: Yeah. You guys are just doing great stuff asking really great questions. I mean, this is the sermon on the Mount.
Tim: Yeah.
Mike: Right. This is like beyond doctrine. This is the way of Jesus. This is the narrow path that he's talking about. Obeying is teaching when it comes to how it is that we treat others.
Chris: Wow.
Mike: And what's great is discipleship. So often is just been purely an intellectual thing and is a part to that. Of course. Our imaginations need to be expanded. Somebody put on Twitter the other day. And I thought it was genius. They just, don't show me motivation. Show me habits. Because motivation obviously, comes and goes. Show me habits.
Tim: Wow.
Mike: So I'm just proud of what you're doing. Because not of the habits will stick. But they're just all designed to wake us up.
Tim: Yeah. So good, Mike, thank you so much for spending the morning with us.
Mike: So fun.
Tim: So guys, I feel like we're going to cut most of that but I feel like his heart was really in it.
Chris: Like his lighting is really nice. Maybe we can take a photo.
Tim: Yeah.
Emmoe: Thanks Mike.
Tim: Michael. Thank you so much.
Mike: You're welcome guys. Appreciate you Chris. Good to see you, man. Look forward to seeing you more.
Emmoe: You rep us.
Chris: [inaudible 00:55:27] Yeah, me too.
Mike: Emmoe.
Emmoe: Yes.
Mike: You're killing it. Dude.
Emmoe: I'm winning.
Mike: You're winning. You're winning.
Tim: Thanks you guys for listening to another 10,000 minute experiment and next week we've got the one and only Carlos Whitaker hanging out. So see you next Tuesday.
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