014: Be Intentional
Singer-Songwriter Jordy Searcy shares the intentional ways he gathers with the church while on tour, the pros and cons of living out of a van and how gathering beyond the Sunday gathering is a need in life. This week’s
Practice:
Be Intentional
+ 014 Be Intentional - Jordy Searcy Transcript
Tim: Hey.
Chris: We're a professional podcast.
Emmoe: We are.
Chris: They put us on the internet.
Tim: It seems like it.
Chris: Yeah. I read some reviews this week. All but one were great.
Emmoe: I know which one you're talking about.
Chris: She didn't think we were Christians at all, so that's fine. And I get that with my music all the time.
Tim: Hey everybody, thank you so much truly for checking out this 10000 minutes: The Experiment Podcast. We have another great conversation in store for you today. But before we jump in that, I just wanted to say thank you for all of you guys who've jumped in to support what we're doing with 10000 Minutes. Hopefully, this has really been helpful for you and good for your soul and something that's challenging you to actually be more aware of Jesus all week long. I just want to jump out there and say, hey, this week, thank you, Lisa, Jim Ryan, Tony, Lee, and Anne for jumping in this week. Some of you have jumped in monthly. Some of you have been doing one-time gifts, some of you have been giving for years. So I just want to say, I see you and I'm so grateful for you in this. So thanks for partnering with us.
Tim: Also, I just wanted to say thank you for those of you who jumped in and did the survey. You can go to 10000minutes.com and actually give us some feedback about how this is going and how we can actually help you again be aware of Jesus all week long. So for all of these things, please go to 10000minutes.com. Once again, 10000 minutes.com, 10000minutes.com. So today we've got a good friend of mine, another guy who I walk with, and literally, we physically walk, not only is Jordy St. Cyr an incredible human and incredibly wise, but he's a crazy great singer, songwriter that is kind of blowing up in its own way right now and it's so fun. Everybody around me seems to love this guy named Jordy St Cyr. And then they find out that I'm friends with him and all of a sudden I'm kind of a big deal. So I hope you'll enjoy just going on a walk in a sense with some of my friends. Check it out.
Tim: All right, everybody, Tim Timmons here with another 10000 Minutes Podcast: The Experiment.
Chris: We are back, baby.
Tim: We're back, baby. We got Emmoe Doniz over here.
Emmoe: Hi.
Tim: We've got Christopher Cleveland.
Chris: Hey guys.
Tim: Well, the stars have gone dim this summer because you've been on the road playing a lot of shows.
Chris: I've been gone five weeks straight.
Tim: Yeah, it's been. And great to be your friend. I was gone [crosstalk 00:02:06].
Chris: I haven't talked to anything but random hotel clerks. Is that what you call them? I'm not sure. Yeah. Front desk workers.
Tim: Front desk clerks.
Chris: Yeah. Hotel [inaudible 00:02:19].
Tim: If that hurt your feelings or if anybody was offended by that...
Chris: Timtimmons@gmail.com.
Emmoe: Just rate us.
Tim: And then we've got, I mean, one of my walking partners.
Jordy: That's right.
Tim: I'll give it. We've got Jordy St. Cyr.
Jordy: What's up?
Tim: Over here to my left.
Jordy: So this podcast lasts 10,000 minutes.
Chris: It does.
Tim: It is a 10000 Minutes Experiment Podcast, so we experiment on how dumb we can get for 10,000 minutes.
Jordy: That's great. And just one LaCroix for this week.
Tim: Yeah.
Jordy: That's good.
Tim: Okay. So you've been on the road a bunch. I mean, to start out, you Ubered here.
Jordy: I did, yes.
Tim: Which we were a little shocked because there weren't enough cars in my...
Chris: There weren't. Usually, there's like nine cars [crosstalk 00:03:02].
Jordy: And there would've been a giant Sprinter van too, but there wasn't that.
Chris: Oh, do you rent that out? We need to talk later.
Jordy: I don't because it's my house.
Chris: Dang it.
Tim: Yeah, so talk about that.
Chris: Well, you can come with us. It's going to be great.
Jordy: So I've been living in a van for a couple of months now because I was going to be gone a good it and was like, man, I don't really want to pay rent for a place that I'm not going to be in a lot because touring, we're starting back up and we had some like video things to travel for and such. And so I was like, I've always wanted to live in the Sprinter van and I bought the van right before everything shut down in 2020. So I spent last year kind of building it out and doing some trips. And I was like, I think I'm going to try to live in a van and make that a goal. And so it's been a sweaty couple of months I will say. Planet Fitness showers are great.
Tim: Where do you shower?
Jordy: Planet fitness. Oh, yeah.
Chris: I love that.
Tim: Everywhere you go.
Jordy: And there are so many of them. It's actually pretty awesome.
Tim: Gosh, you should get on some kind of... I don't know.
Chris: There's like van networks, right? Like van life.
Jordy: I have a number of friends that are doing it, so we'll meet up in random places we are.
Emmoe: Oh cool.
Chris: Love it. What was that movie that just came out about people living in a van?
Jordy: I didn't see it.
Chris: What's her name?
Jordy: Nomadland.
Chris: Nomadland.
Jordy: I heard it was good, but I never saw it.
Tim: It was a movie or a show?
Chris: A movie.
Tim: A doc.
Chris: A movie.
Jordy: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, but it felt like a doc.
Emmoe: Whoa.
Tim: Any funny or odd or scary events that have happened?
Jordy: Let's see. One time I was parked in Santa Cruz and surfing and it was like midnight and I was sleeping in my van completely naked, and then I forgot to lock the door and I'm parked 10 minutes outside of town, and I'm the only one at this random parking lot, surf spot area. It's really remote.
Tim: You're allowed to park overnight.
Jordy: Yeah. So it's enough remote, so where you can park overnight. And so the guy opens the door because... Well, I hadn't gone to sleep yet, so I hadn't thought to lock up yet, and he was just kind of unintelligibly and was like [inaudible 00:04:59]. And I was like, oh man, I got to get this guy out of my house here because I don't really know what his deal is and it's midnight in the middle of nowhere, he just walked up. So I put a blanket around me and I run up to the front of the van and I keep... I don't really like guns, I don't think it's a great idea. And so I keep a giant machete close.
Emmoe: The alternative.
Jordy: If you're going to get into a gunfight, that's maybe not a great place to start bringing a knife to a gunfight. It's either not going to work or it's going to stop a gunfight because they're going to be like, that guy's a machete, this is not worth it.
Tim: Yeah, he's a ninja.
Emmoe: What else does have?
Chris: There's a naked guy with a machete.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Jordy: That's the thing is like you can either defend yourself in your home with a handgun or you can do that. And I feel like it's going to be as effective in most scenarios.
Chris: You probably didn't even need the machete.
Emmoe: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:05:57].
Jordy: He wasn't really saying words and my machete was kind of to my right. And I was like, man, I would have to either back up from the door and get this guy more room to get in the door in my house or I could drop the blanket and grab the machete. And so he's talking and I'm running through the options in my head. I was like, okay, where do we go here? And so I decide to just kind of... There was a pause in whatever he was saying, and so I just gave him a little fist bump and then slammed the door and then eased out of there and it was all good.
Chris: Nice.
Tim: S you didn't show him anything.
Chris: The third option.
Jordy: I didn't show him anything. I didn't have to pull a machete on him.
Emmoe: You complimented him.
Jordy: I was just like, yeah, man. I think he was really taken. He was like, oh, are we bros? And then all of a sudden I was gone. And I realized as I was driving away, of all the weird people in that scenario, I was on his level. I was a naked guy with a machete in a van in the middle of the night.
Emmoe: This is like shaping me, turn the other cheek. Wow.
Jordy: He's the guy that opened the van door, but I was the guy that already had my clothes off.
Tim: Who's the crazy now.
Jordy: Yeah.
Emmoe: Who offended who?
Jordy: And I was like it's just good to make friends. Yeah. So that's what living in a van was like.
Chris: I love that.
Tim: Did you drive away that night?
Jordy: I drove down to another spot. I was like I'm going to...
Emmoe: Smart.
Jordy: Yeah. Do the [inaudible 00:07:33]. Yeah. So I sort of cleared out.
Tim: That would have given me PTSD every time I went to bed.
Jordy: For some reason, I don't know why it doesn't. I guess because it went well, I was like, oh, I guess that's as bad as it'll get, and that was fine. So I lock the van up every night for sure. I double-check everything.
Tim: I think we're done, you guys. That was great too.
Chris: I learned a lot.
Emmoe: I know.
Chris: We could extrapolate that for a while.
Emmoe: That's a book. I could read it. You got to write, man.
Tim: On a 10,000 minutes network, what to do.
Emmoe: The short stories. Yeah.
Tim: How to befriend a crazy being a crazy.
Jordy: Yeah.
Tim: Somebody did say that...
Chris: Be all things to all people. You know what I mean.
Jordy: Fight fire with crazy as they say.
Tim: Well, somebody did say that if you're ever being accosted by somebody, that you should just...
Chris: Run at them naked, crazy.
Jordy: Turn the other cheek.
Chris: Was that it?
Tim: Turn the other cheek.
Emmoe: That's what I'm saying.
Tim: No, but you kind of go crazy. You act like you have got a few screws loose.
Jordy: Why does that resonate so much with me? That's my mindset.
Tim: Which is what you just did.
Jordy: Yeah. Because something in you knows...
Tim: You fought crazy with crazy.
Jordy: Well, I think it's because that's what I am. If I'm not acting crazy, I'm just like, oh yeah, of course, I can scare that guy off because I'm a crazy van boy.
Tim: Can you explain that because I think there's more underneath that than just a joke?
Jordy: Yeah. Well, for example, in that situation, I'm like, if you've ever had to think through like, okay, I need to defend myself against somebody, I've been in that situation and I'm like, okay, I don't really actually think a gun is a good fit for me. That doesn't really seem like something I want to bring into the world. So I'm like, oh well, you can intimidate people in different ways if you really need to. So I don't know what I'm trying to communicate here. I don't really know that's valuable for anybody.
Tim: No, I think you're doing great.
Emmoe: You think outside the box and this guy was too.
Jordy: Yeah. Or social settings and social scenarios are maybe much more malleable than we think they are.
Chris: I like that.
Tim: Continue.
Jordy: The rules of engagement and human life and human interaction and from culture to culture differs so much. And I think maybe being on the road as a musician kind of teaches you that too. You're like, oh man, I'm not really used to brushing my teeth in a different hotel every morning, and you're like, I need to have my daily routine. And so you wake up and figure out how to be a human on the road and in different places that you are. And you're like, well, I guess I have to kind of break some of these rules to feel normal and to feel healthy on the road. And then you do, and you're like, oh, these can all be broken.
Tim: Well, we're doing great you guys. We're really doing great. Just a fun little story. So it was a while back, we had just gone on our first walk with Jordy. And my wife, she goes, have you heard this song, Tim? All my friends are talking about it. And she just plays me the song and I'm like, oh, that's an awesome song. She's like, it's from this guy, Jordy St. Cyr, something like that. I'm like, oh, honey, he was just here like 10 minutes ago.
Chris: That's awesome.
Tim: And I was just with a bunch of students this past week and all of them were playing a bunch of your music and it's just fun to hear all these different groups of people playing things that you're writing. And you're like I want to be the church with people all week long. Dude, fast walker, real fast walker.
Jordy: Yeah. You might as well try to keep up.
Tim: You can give Chris a run for his money. Okay, this week, you guys, the experiment was be the church gathered beyond the 80 minutes. We love the 80-minute gathering however long that can be. And some people don't love the 80-minute gathering, which is also great too. I think we've all, four of us, have grown up pretty steep in that 80-minute gathering. And again, we are not damning 80 minutes, it's really wonderful. We're just saying there are 10,000 other minutes, and what does it look like for us to be the church in the other 10,000 minutes? So gathered, not just... So how do you guys see that? How does that look or how have you seen that work?
Jordy: It's funny. I feel like the system of church, at least that I've grown up in that I feel like a lot of my friends having a perception, it's like, okay, we go to this place and we sing songs together, and then we listen to this guy talk about his perspective on this book that we're all reading. And then there's not much conversation about it afterwards, and then we go home. And I feel like, at least for me going back to observing social norms and what could be changed, it's like, oh wow, so if this is not a conversation and we're just listening to one perspective, then it's like, oh, are we doing what we need to do? These days, I've been interested in like, okay, what does conversation about God and things about God and our lives look like? And if we're not having that apart from the sermon on Sunday, it's like, the sermon is just actually the first piece, and if we only do the first piece, then we're not actually diving into all of it.
Tim: Yeah. We rethink a lot of words on this podcast. So we've rethought the word blessed and going, wow, it doesn't mean what we think it means. And we've been rethinking now just the word church; church gathered, scattered.
Emmoe: And online.
Tim: And the church online as well.
Jordy: Yeah. I would say it's been really interesting through the season of COVID in a lot of ways. I guess, socially, emotionally, whatever, we kind of all went into survival mode for a long time and had to think through, instead of like, oh man, what would be fun to do this week? Who do I want to hang out with? We had to go like, okay, how do I get what I need so that I can stay sane from week to week? And I think that happened in spirituality for me as well. And I was forced to kind of break down, okay, what is church? What are the components of church that I would get in the 80 minutes? And if I don't get those every week, then there's going to be a big problem if this goes on for months. So I had to break down like, okay, am I getting poured into by mentors? Am I hearing people talk about God, about scripture? Am I hearing sermons of different sorts? Am I talking about them with peers? Am I pouring into somebody else? And am I participating in worship and music and that kind of thing. So I think for me, it was important to break all those down and be like, okay, I need to kind of go get those five things this week somewhere if I'm not getting there on Sunday morning. Yeah.
Tim: Can you say those five things again?
Jordy: Yeah. Am I being poured into by somebody? Can I be ministered to by somebody? Can I hear some thoughts about God and talk about them with my friends? Can I pour into somebody else? And can I experience God in music or art somehow?
Tim: Yeah. I mean, that's a pretty great grid.
Chris: So what are some of the ways you did that outside of the church?
Jordy: Yeah. I think it was like thinking through like, okay, who are the older people that I really respect in my life that I want to learn from, that I want to be like? How do I just invite them into my life? And Tim, you were one of those guys. And there was a few people that I would like, man, I just need to call them this week and practice being vulnerable and say like, hey, this is what is going on, what do you think? And then I would also think through like, okay, who am I doing that for? There are a couple of guys that are like younger brothers to me that I would just call and check in on and kind of keep that flow going. And then it was also really like every time I was making dinner or something, I would call or FaceTime a friend and just be like, catch me up. What have you been up to you this week and invite those spiritual conversations in? Music, I feel like I actually took a little bit of a break from music in a lot of ways over this past year. And I think I maybe...
Tim: From music?
Jordy: I still wrote a bunch and I made a record, but I wasn't I wasn't prepping for a tour. I wasn't thinking about wearing cool clothes. I wasn't like, okay, I need to hire this photographer and be a bad model for an hour. Like,
Tim: Gosh, aren't photo shoots the worst?
Chris: The worst.
Jordy: We were doing stuff last week, and I was talking with Sam, who does a lot of my photography, and was like, yeah, you don't really expect as an artist, you also have to be just a terrible version of a model. But it's like a skill that you have to have.
Tim: So true.
Chris: There are so many things like that.
Jordy: And I was like, man, I have three faces that don't look super dumb, but I have to know them and I have to do those faces in order to make a dollar bill.
Chris: Yeah. After the first 30 seconds, you're like, bud, this is all you get. You can change the clothes, but this is it.
Jordy: Yeah. Even this time, I hired a friend, a stylist, which is a friend who picked out all my clothes, but at first, I was like, man, I'm so lame. I'm going to hire a stylist, who do [inaudible 00:16:03]? And I realized after I did it, I was like, man, I don't have to shop again this year. This is awesome. I can wear shorts and a t-shirt and then somebody else told me these clothes look good and I can trust them and that's good.
Tim: Yeah. You just said, there're three faces that you know you aren't dumb. And I'm like, yeah, this one's hot. Look at this one. Oh, God. And then you see the picture of it, you're like, that's stupid, that's stupid. And everybody seems to like the pictures that I think are just the dumbest. You're like, who is this douche?
Jordy: And then you realize, you're like, man, this is a product. I don't want to be a model for fun. So we have to go with that picture instead. They all think it's good, and this is kind of about me and kind of not at all, so let's go with the one.
Chris: I love that. Exactly.
Tim: But you didn't play music.
Jordy: Right. I took a step away from music except for the album.
Chris: Yeah. Exactly.
Tim: Speaking of stepping away from music, Jordy, something that I see in you that I love is your intentionality. I mean, anybody who's listening already can hear your intentionality with life. I think you do that in a lot of areas that I have just observed.
Jordy: I fooled you well.
Tim: Totally. But intentional doesn't mean anything, but just being intentional. So I can be intentional about a lot of things. But I think even just your decisions that you've tried to make in life are very intentional. Even your music decisions. Obviously, not playing music, but making a record. But you're very intentional with that. I think that's a huge part of being the church outside of the 80 minutes is really just pushing for some kind of intentionality with people and being vulnerable and trying to pull out vulnerability in other people. How have you guys experienced that? Why is this such a hard thing for the church? And I do not mean the institution. I mean the people that make up the institution. Why is it so hard for us to be intentional about the time and the 10,000 minutes when we're so intentional about the 80 minutes? I mean, it's like, we get dressed up, we go, we do the thing.
Jordy: Very efficient. We can get it all done in 80 minutes. So like it's not going to take up a lot of our time and we got to have off that day anyway. Let's do it in the morning so we can do something afterwards.
Tim: What do you mean by get it all done?
Jordy: Yeah. It's like, oh, well, we could get together and if we go to church and then we also sing and we could hear a whole sermon and then we kind of have our God stuff for the week, I guess, and then we could probably get it done before lunch if we really wrap this up. And so I definitely can feel like that sometimes. And maybe that's the American hard work efficiency structure in us that's made church, instead of this day of rest of, oh, let's gather together and remember who we are and experience this thing, it ends up being... It's like, oh, we could do it probably a couple of times with a couple of services. Okay, this is great. And this is coming from somebody who does thanks very quickly and efficiently to a fault. I wonder if we would take more time if we treated it more like a tailgate than a doctor's appointment.
Tim: Okay. So why is that so hard for people? Why is it so hard for us? I mean, that's the point of this entire podcast, 10000 Minutes, is ultimately us being intentional about our awareness of Jesus all week long with each other. So why is this even a need?
Emmoe: I mean, again, it goes back to rethinking the word church like we said. I grew up only seeing God's work through ministry. I only saw it within the building. So it's taken years to understand how being together outside of Sunday morning is also being with Jesus. That alone is still really hard sometimes for me to understand when we've constantly kind of split up the mundane and then the church spiritual experience. So it doesn't feel like, oh, it's constantly an invitation. Like I am a church with you all right now. Even now, I wouldn't have put that together. Also, kind of what you said with Sunday mornings, there's an outline. I think it's also kind of messy to create new structures with people and be like, I don't really know how to guide this, I'm used to Bible studies. I don't really know what we're going to do. Should we pray? Does that feel forced? But that's the whole point. Like it's going to feel a little uncomfortable to find out how to invite people into your life and gather with them.
Tim: Yeah. I mean, you said something about the mundane. I think our friend, Kevin Dixon, who's part of our church community, he's kind of the leader of it, he has really helped me see discipleship. I think I've seen discipleship as a book or a program and it's something you kind of go through with people and we're going to do this, where he's like, I don't think we need books. I don't think we need programs. Studies are great, but that's not the point of discipleship. Discipleship is walking, and I'm saying figuratively and literally, with loving people and being intentional about where is Jesus in the midst of all these things. It's so much simpler than all the books that I've felt like I've needed my whole life.
Chris: Yeah. I don't think I've been to our church yet this year.
Tim: To the church building?
Chris: Yeah. Into the church building that I would consider like my church community. What's really interesting for me is I feel like I'm just now getting to the place where church is happening naturally in life. I found like back on the road, around all these people, that all of my conversations naturally went around some sort of faith thing and it wasn't forced and it wasn't weird. And for the first time in my life, the angle that I've kind of been approaching things and the lens I've been looking through has me pumped up about it, so it comes up in conversation.
Tim: Right. Naturally.
Chris: Yeah. And it's not like, oh, I'm going to tell you about Jesus. It's not that at all. It's like, God is doing in something bigger than anything I've ever experienced and it's got me interested enough that I'm like, hey, here's what's going on in my head, what's going on in yours? For instance, these people picked us up, we played a show in Minnesota yesterday, day four, awesome couple, this woman was telling us about one of their daughters who is like 16 or something. And she kind of got to the point where she's like, mom, I don't know if I believe in God. I could tell she was really struggling through it. And from my perspective, I was like, oh, she's exactly where she needs to be.
Chris: She's finally to the point where she sees some of the cracks and she's starting to challenge it. And that means she cares enough to own it. And so it was a moment for me to say, hey mom, don't be afraid of this. Let's lean into it. And here's some stuff that I've read and whatever. Even in little conversation, be able to form each other, and there were some theological things that slipped in there and she was like, oh my gosh, I never thought about that. I was like, yeah, go tell your pastor, see how that goes.
Tim: Chris from Stars Go Dim told me. One of the five things that you mentioned earlier is somebody giving you something to think about. And we all want people to agree with us so much or to be with people who we agree with and then we're all good somehow. But even in that, it's listening to things that you may not agree with, but are making you think and process, but then how do we process in community with people and not just hold it all in ourselves? It hit me, and as you were saying that Chris, it's like yeah, that's actually such a gift that people would say something and I go, I don't know if I buy that, but why? Let's talk through why.
Jordy: Or like with most new good ideas, part of it is, oh my gosh, that's awesome, I needed that so much. Part of it is like, man, I don't know about that. And that might be totally off base or in a year it might be the most helpful thing.
Chris: I think one of the things getting back to it is being intentional like we talked about with you and saying, hey, I've got to have these relationships. If I've learned anything in this podcast, it's that faith happens best in community with other people, when you can bounce those ideas off each other, when you've got a support system. Now, coming out of COVID, it's like, okay, how do we do this better than we did before? How do we not make it just what's happening in the building? We've all had to find those relationships and outlets outside of the building this year. So how do we continue to do that and supplement with Sunday morning? But Sunday morning's not the whole thing.
Emmoe: Man. It sounds like, yeah, to experience what we know about Jesus is as important as knowing about Jesus. So like that Sunday morning, it's like we get to dive deeper into who he is together. But throughout the week we're experiencing the peace that you gave that lady and that it's like, oh, I tasted and I got to see God in movement, not just on Sunday, but in my real-life personal experiences. So it makes sense why it's so needed to be partnered with the corporate gathering.
Chris: Yeah. I think we've shortsighted God a bit and made Him small and put Him in the walls of our churches for a long time. And one thing that this year has done is said, Hey, he's not going to fit in here this year. Like, find Him everywhere else. And that's the beauty of this podcast I think, it's like walking through the ways that we can wake up and see God in and through everything.
Tim: Ultimately, this segment is being the church gathered beyond the 80 minutes. So I guess the question is what does that look like? What has that looked like in our lives? And what does it look like moving forward?
Jordy: I think for me, especially being on the road, like you said, not going to be in a church building for a while, I'll definitely be looking for those moments of like, okay, how can I experience God and music with other people and also be looking for, okay, what are my spiritual conversations this week? I brought like six openers out for a six-week run because I just wanted to hang out with different friends on the road.
Chris: Yes, I love that.
Jordy: Which is selfish and great of me.
Chris: I'm doing the same exact thing this year.
Jordy: Oh yeah.
Chris: It's like, I'm not touring with anyone I don't like.
Jordy: Exactly.
Chris: Only friends.
Jordy: Totally.
Chris: That's right.
Jordy: And choosing a lot of those people, some of them were like, man, I would love to bring you on tour and I feel like maybe there are some things that I could offer you because you're just stepping into this. And there's other people where I've been like, oh man, I need you here. I'm going to need to talk to you that [crosstalk 00:26:30], so please come on the road with me so that you can keep me sane.
Tim: But once again, that's being intentional.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: That's really intentional time of saying I want to be the church with people all week long.
Jordy: Yeah.
Tim: So what does being intentional about being the church during the 10,000 minutes look like for you? Remember, we're not trying to do something to earn God's love or be a more awesome Christian, we're actually just trying to be more aware of Jesus. We're actually just leaning more into our identity as his church all week long to actually truly be his representers in this world. So I just handed Jordy a guitar in my studio and said, hey man, would you just play this song? So here's just a little snip bit of the song called Explaining Jesus.
Jordy: (singing).
Tim: Okay. While speaking of being the church gathered, we are gathered as the church right now, which is really great. And we are not going to talk about anything really spiritual. Yet, maybe it is.
Emmoe: I mean, it's layered. It could be layered
Jordy: If it is, it's spiritual.
Tim: So all things okay. So we're just going to throw a few words out at you.
Jordy: Sounds good.
Tim: And Jordy, I hate to be this guy and the Olympics are happening right now, and I feel like I to be that kind of guy.
Jordy: You don't have to be this guy.
Tim: No, I do. This is called a speed round. This isn't a think and go like, let me think about this. This is first thing that comes to your mind. I can edit if it's inappropriate. I can edit. I probably won't but I can edit. So we're going to go around and we actually don't have any questions, we're just going to try this. We're just going to try this out today for the first time. So I'll start. You want to go second.
Emmoe: Sure. Just your first thought. Okay.
Jordy: Let's go.
Emmoe: I'll go first.
Tim: Tim, this is a speed round.
Emmoe: Oh, my goodness.
Chris: Usually, you lead with, well, what was your most recent moral failure?
Emmoe: That's very true. And we don't edit that one.
Jordy: Most recent moral failure, I am just...
Tim: Standing naked with a machete.
Emmoe: Don't answer.
Chris: Are you going to let him answer?
Tim: Yeah, of course.
Jordy: And I know that I need to get better at this and I recognize this in myself. I'm just not kind to people that are working at a counter. I'm just so shut down. I'm like, totally, give me this thing. Like a hotel key. Okay, cool. Yeah. I'm starting to realize; these guys are working hard. These guys and girls that service in everyday life that are at the drive-through, maybe if I was working at the drive-through, not only would I not do as good of a job, but maybe I wouldn't even have a good as... How do they have a better attitude working at a drive-through than I do getting a hamburger in 120 seconds?
Tim: Right.
Chris: I once got disproportionately upset at this poor woman at the Arby's counter when they changed the chicken sandwich.
Tim: Oh my gosh.
Chris: And my wife, McKenzie, who's just a way better person than me just let me know all about it.
Tim: In front of everybody?
Chris: Yeah. And probably for a while afterwards. This was years ago. I'm still embarrassed about it. It's so bad.
Emmoe: Oh, man.
Chris: I feel you.
Jordy: What really annoys me?
Tim: Oh, that was my question for you.
Jordy: Yeah. I have to say I am so go with the flow that not a whole lot bothers me and I think maybe more things should, and then my life would be a little bit better.
Tim: What about the people at the fast-food restaurants? Is that a [crosstalk 00:30:47]?
Jordy: It's not that I'm mad at them, it's more that I'm just like, oh yeah, not interacting with them.
Emmoe: Just in and out.
Tim: This is a transaction.
Jordy: This is a transaction. I'm not going to give you any level of personhood.
Tim: Okay. Sorry. I'm going to...
Chris: We can go way back into church again.
Emmoe: I told you it's layered.
Tim: What about the simulated people on phones? Like when you call AT&T and you get, hello, how can I help you?
Jordy: That's so much better?
Tim: Tell me, what do you need to know?
Chris: That's better for you. You know what makes me more made, when the little fake click, hold on, [inaudible 00:31:17], I'm like, no one is freaking typing. No one is typing. It makes me so mad.
Emmoe: It's like, who do you think I am, I'm not stupid.
Jordy: I love that because what I'm doing is like, I'm so glad I don't have to talk to a real person. This is so much better.
Chris: Don't patronize me.
Emmoe: It's real.
Tim: You like that.
Emmoe: I'm on your side.
Jordy: I like that because I'm so introverted that if I'm making a phone call to somebody and they don't answer, part of me goes like, oh, thank God they didn't answer. I didn't want to talk to that person.
Tim: Jordy, I'm not judging you. I'm just amazed.
Jordy: You can go right ahead.
Tim: This is beautiful. I feel worse about my life a little bit because I have a lot of strong words and when I...
Chris: It brought up a visceral feeling for me, just that typing sound, I'm angry right now. It brought it right to the surface.
Emmoe: Take another walk. We're double up today. Oh, thoughts, machete.
Tim: That's [crosstalk 00:32:17].
Emmoe: No, I'm kidding. I don't know. Okay. Oceans or mountains?
Jordy: It's oceans for sure.
Emmoe: What is it about oceans?
Jordy: It's just where I feel the most at home. Surfing's the best. There are so many things about it. I mean, there's the things about it that I like, then there's the intangibles. And the things about it that I like, it's like, oh, just sitting out and looking at something really beautiful and being really calm and then riding a rollercoaster every three minutes is what it is. And it's so beautiful. But then I just grew up in and around the water and I felt so home and so connected to God growing up at the ocean. And so I just remember so many critical thoughts and realizations and ideas that happened when it was what feels like just me and God. And it's just me in the ocean and just being in and around it. I don't know. If you talk to other surfers, you'll probably get a similar answer of like, oh yeah, man, I love it. And it sounds pretty weird, I know. And there's a lot of intangibles there, but I'm definitely thinking through, okay, do I need to move out to the West Coast to be close to the water at least for a period of my life. But it's a very important thing.
Tim: When I see the ocean, I literally breathe deeper.
Jordy: Oh yeah. It's a soul connection thing, for sure.
Chris: Okay. Here's mine. I've had a great view, all podcast, of this fat tat on your left thigh and I need to know the story behind that bad boy.
Tim: I kept watching you look at his thigh, I'm like [crosstalk 00:33:40].
Chris: I was trying to read it.
Jordy: Oh yeah. This tat, which everyone on the podcast can see, is my family crest and it takes up... It's my only tattoo. The first and I think the last.
Tim: Did it hurt so bad?
Jordy: Oh, it hurts so bad. It was awful. It's this like dragon atop of shield being stabbed. And there like a knight helmet that says St. Cyr, it's got three stars. And St. Cyr, France is where my family is originally from. And me and my brother lived together for the last four years, and the last year, he was like, we need to get huge matching tattoos because this family crest was always hanging at our house. And my mom had another print made, she's like, here you go, now you guys both have these hanging family crest things. And we were like, that's not enough. So I have this giant thigh tat and Liam, my brother has a giant one on his calf. So it's a pretty extra intense thing.
Chris: I like it. There's some identity though. It's like, remember who you are when you see this.
Jordy: And with tattoos, I feel like I need to get something that I know I'm always going to be really stoked that I have. And even if this looks really bad and dumb one day, I'm still going to be...
Tim: Yeah, it does.
Jordy: Yeah. And I'll still be so glad that I have it. I'll be like, yeah, look at this weird, bad, dumb thing that reminds me of my brother. It's great. But instead, it's a dragon and a sword and I think it's great.
Tim: It's showing a lot of thigh and I'm sorry, Emmoe, I feel like it's a little inappropriate.
Chris: There's a lot of thigh. That's one of my favorite things about COVID, you said I don't have to get dressed up or look cool anymore. Like all of my music friends now, every time I show up, it's like really short shorts, some t-shirts and we're just like living life. I wore shorts to five shows last week, did not care.
Emmoe: I saw your post. I was crying.
Chris: I was like it's hot outside, am I trying to impress? Forget this.
Emmoe: Now everyone's wearing shorts. You're an influencer.
Chris: Let's go.
Tim: Best song you never wrote.
Jordy: Best song. Why did I just think Live Like You Were Dying by Tim McGraw?
Chris: Because that song is so good.
Tim: It's so good.
Emmoe: You just exposed yourself. I love it.
Jordy: Because that's my go-to karaoke song. Because I think that when you sing that at karaoke, it's a bit for sure. Everybody's like, this is a bit, but everybody also goes a little bit even if it is subconsciously, man, that's a really good song.
Chris: Still good. Okay, Tim, favorite karaoke song, go-to karaoke song.
Tim: Oh, I don't do karaoke.
Chris: You've never done it.
Tim: I just don't do it.
Chris: That's a whole podcast. Go to a karaoke bar.
Emmoe: Are we recording in a karaoke bar? Are we going?
Chris: Oh, my God, you have to.
Tim: You guys can start your own podcast. Timmons is out.
Jordy: What keeps you from karaoke?
Tim: Gosh.
Emmoe: It's not fun.
Tim: It's not fun for me. I love watching other people. If you can kind of sing and I can kind of sing, that's what I do for a living a little bit.
Chris: If I'm going to sing, you're going to pay me, is that what you mean?
Tim: No. I can sing good enough, but it's like everybody who's generally doing karaoke is like...
Chris: Screaming Don't Stop Believing at the top of your lungs.
Tim: They're vocalists.
Emmoe: Yeah. The vocalists are out karaoke night.
Jordy: I don't sound like that when I'm...
Chris: Yeah. You don't use your real voice when you are karaoking. My go-to is I'll Make Love to You by Boyz II Men.
Tim: That's good.
Chris: Let's go.
Emmoe: I love it.
Jordy: I feel like you would kill A Boy Named Sue and I think it would be great.
Tim: Yeah. I can do it. I'm not saying I can't do it. I'm just saying, I don't prefer...
Jordy: I play music for a living, I could do karaoke.
Chris: I'm not dumbing down my art for this.
Tim: Yeah, I will not.
Chris: It's not a circus. It says a lot about you.
Tim: Or a karaoke song.
Emmoe: No, I don't have a karaoke song.
Chris: Wow. You don't either.
Emmoe: No, I panic. I get overwhelmed with the expectation of what I should sound like.
Chris: Let's talk about identity and karaoke for a second. I used to not want to do it because I didn't want to...
Jordy: Being a singer.
Chris: Yeah. I didn't want to do that. But then I learned how to be bad at it. And it was freeing. And it was like, ah, I don't have to be perfect when I sing.
Jordy: So you choose a song that you know you can't do.
Chris: You're not going to sing. Yeah.
Jordy: Yeah. You pick one that you're just like, this is all the way out of my reach.
Chris: Yeah, that's right. And then there's freedom in it. It's an exercise. I want to challenge you this week to go sing some karaoke. Even if it's on your phone.
Emmoe: [crosstalk 00:38:05] my practice.
Chris: Yeah, that's your practice.
Tim: Well, she dances at home.
Chris: I know. It's kind of the same. It's the same.
Emmoe: Okay. This is what happens. We go to the karaoke bar and then the minute they're like, Emmoe, you should sing, let's do like Beyonce. And I'm like, no, I don't want to do Beyonce. And then I'm just like in a corner like pull off Beyonce, I'm ruining your birthday. And I'm like, guys, I got to go, my parking was two hours. I get so overwhelmed.
Tim: We just got here.
Emmoe: Then I'm like we do this once a year, once a year, Emmoe.
Chris: I've been dog sitting and then I'm real worried.
Emmoe: The inner critic is just so loud at karaoke night. I can't do it.
Jordy: If I had to choose one for you, it might be...
Emmoe: Yes, please. Some EDM song that has one hook, that's all I got [crosstalk 00:38:48].
Jordy: What's that Daughtry song?
Chris: I'm coming home. [crosstalk 00:38:54].
Jordy: I know Chris Daughtry [crosstalk 00:39:04] podcast.
Chris: A little known fact.
Jordy: I've always wanted to meet him.
Chris: Second Stars Go Dim concert ever was with Chris Daughtry, like 2007.
Tim: Really?
Chris: Oh yeah.
Emmoe: What?
Chris: Straight off of American Idol.
Jordy: That's great. That's a bill right there.
Chris: There you go.
Emmoe: Wow.
Tim: Okay. You got one.
Emmoe: I learned a lot about myself. I pass, I'm blank. I'm still thinking about what karaoke song I could do. It's like the dogs, I'm going to spiral. My goodness.
Chris: A little known fact.
Emmoe: [crosstalk 00:39:38] questions. Let's see.
Jordy: I played the Republican National Convention in 2016, the day that Trump was selected as the candidate.
Chris: That's so impressive.
Jordy: I was on The Voice, barely. And one of my friends is just so left-leaning. And he was literally like, well, they hired my company to get the entertainment for the RNC, so I'm going to stick it to them and I'm going to get this guy that was just barely on The Voice. And it was like, how much do you charge? We're like, whatever this huge made-up number is. Like, whatever, we'll pay it. And we're like, what? Kept me and my drummer alive, literally six months.
Chris: I love that.
Tim: That's classic.
Chris: Wow. You were there. Some of my friends went there...
Jordy: We were going to open The Beach Boys, but they pulled out. They were like, we're not doing it. And so it was me.
Tim: Trying, to save their career.
Jordy: Yeah.
Chris: There's a lot of golden here, Tim. Good luck editing.
Jordy: That's my weird gig.
Tim: Yeah. That's your weirdest gig.
Jordy: Any weird gigs?
Tim: I did a GOP Convention in 1997, 1998. I did in San Diego, there was a big GOP Convention.
Chris: Who was the candidate?
Tim: Was it Bush?
Chris: Yeah. Maybe so. I guess. Yeah. I was only 12.
Tim: We played with Everclear. It was our band; we were called Simple. It was a guy named Greg Laswell, who's just an amazing artist. He and I and this other guy. Oh gosh, it was a tragic, tragic gig.
Jordy: You guys were just drinking Everclear on stage.
Tim: Yes. So they had us all set up. We were telling everybody at Point Loma where we went to school, like yeah, we're playing at the GOP Convention. They told us there would be like thousands and thousands of students all in this place. And so they're like, okay, you guys are on in about an hour. And right at that time was when they were all supposed to walk over to the actual convention center and were outside. So there were maybe three people out there, like the custodians picking up trash. So it was a pretty good gig.
Emmoe: Oh my God.
Chris: I played a show last week at a water park, which I've done... No, here's what happens is opener plays to... We're at the wave pool, like thousands of people in the wave pool, which I'm like, no, thank you. Anyways. And then we're walking on stage and they clear the pool out. Some kid pooped in the pool.
Tim: Serious?
Emmoe: Stop.
Jordy: That's so awesome
Chris: So we played for 45 minutes to an empty wave pool. I was like, listen, we're going to go ahead and start. And so like the last 15 minutes, they opened the pool back. Everybody rushes in. I'm like, you're doing this. You're coming back.
Tim: Jumping the water.
Jordy: That's so awesome.
Chris: That's just one of my weird shows from this week that happened.
Emmoe: Oh, my goodness.
Tim: That's so true.
Chris: It never gets better. It's just more random craziness.
Emmoe: That is so good. I mean, I played a festival with my old band, but it also flooded. So there was nobody there. And we were the first act. That's my only weird one.
Chris: Are you even in a band if you haven't played for no one.
Emmoe: That's so true.
Tim: Well, speaking of no one, hopefully, there are more than 12 people listening to this podcast at this point.
Emmoe: Listen, subscribe, share it.
Chris: Haven't given up on us yet. Thanks, mom.
Tim: Thank you, Jordy.
Chris: Thank you for having me.
Tim: You're so welcome. Well, I hope that was good for your soul. I always love these conversations that are good for mine. I've had a really hard year and some really intimate relationships and I've been going through a lot of grief trying to figure out what does grief look like? And so because of that, we're going to do a little one-off this next week. So this next podcast is actually going to be with my mom who's a therapist and she's just wise. So Chris, Emmoe, and I are all going to chat with my mom and I think you're going to love that episode. I think this week; the practice would be what are the things that you've been grieving or have already grieved or are grieving in this moment. And then I think that'll be fun to talk through it this next week. All right guys. Thank you. So as usual, would you guys please rate, like, and subscribe to this podcast and please share it with some friends. It is so fun to hear your comments. You can always find us on Instagram and on the Facebooks and all those other places. And if you guys want to get free text messages, please sign up. They're hopefully encouraging to you because they're good for me. So thanks, you guys. Truly, such an honor to spend these minutes with you.
EPISODE 015 - RETHINK YOUR GRIEF - CAROL TIMMONS
Tim: Okay. Hey everybody. Tim Timmons here with another 10,000 minute experiment. We've got Emmoe Donise to my right.
Emmoe: Hello.
Tim: We've got Chris Cleveland to my left.
Chris: Yeah, we do.
Tim: Hey, really quick. Every time you test my voice, how do you do it?
Chris: I'm Tim. I don't even know if that was the same one?
Emmoe: I don't think so.
Tim: I'm always, yeah, I'm sitting at the chair going, Hey, we just test our mic.? He always does the dumbest voice.
Tim: "Hey, oost voo, oost doo."
Chris: We're just trying to get someone who's a little more excited to be here than I am.
Emmoe: Lies. Lies.
Tim: That's what you do. That's what you do.
Emmoe: Oh my goodness.
Tim: It's so stupid.
Emmoe: Mm-mm (negative).
Tim: Also, we are in my studio and this is a great day because my air conditioning is broke.
Chris: Oh, welcome to the club.
Tim: So it feels wonderful in here.
Chris: It's not bad though.
Emmoe: I can't even tell.
Chris: Yeah. Okay. No, that feels great.
Tim: And we are talking to an amazing, amazing woman right now via the zoom. She is in Orange County, California. Everybody in the world, please give it up for Miss Carol Timmons.
Chris: Woo.
Emmoe: Woo.
Tim: Woo.
Chris: Yay.
Carol: Yeah. I'm glad to be here.
Chris: Yay.
Carol: Thank you.
Tim: And if you guys can't figure that out, Carol Timmons is my mom.
Chris: Yes she is.
Carol: Yes.
Tim: So everybody goes, "Oh, you know Carol?" I'm like, "Yeah, the babe." I mean, she looks the same. I mean, you can kind of see her on zoom. She looks the same as she's looked for a many, many years.
Chris: Forever.
Carol: Well, I just don't know why I have to age if he does?
Tim: What's that mean?
Emmoe: Mm.
Emmoe: That was deep.
Carol: I'm sticking with 55 and you know, you can be 45, but I'm-
Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah Mom, please don't give my age. That'd be really great. I'm 24.
Emmoe: I love it. Oh my goodness.
Tim: So that's my mom, everybody. And she has been my mom for a long time. For 24 years. Chris, you had a question right before we started about what she calls me?
Chris: That's right. Yeah. I wondered if she called you Timothy or Tim? My hunch was correct, that it's Timothy.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Because I'm Christopher at home.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Not Chris. Yeah.
Tim: You can call me Timothy anytime you want.
Carol: I call you both Tim and Timothy.
Tim: She does. In her letters that she writes me, it's Timothy.
Emmoe: Aww.
Tim: Yeah. This woman's pretty amazing everybody. Even living in Nashville now I still get people that will write me on the Instagram or the Facebook saying, your mom has saved my life or whatever. I mean, that has been for years and years. So my mom's a shrink.
Carol: Thank you.
Chris: A shrink.
Tim: She's a therapist.
Chris: I imagine there's some education behind that word.
Tim: Shrink?
Chris: Yeah.
Carol: I am officially an LMFT.
Chris: There we go.
Tim: Watch your mouth.
Chris: Licensed Marriage Family Therapist.
Tim: Okay. Oh yeah. Yeah.
Emmoe: Nice.
Tim: Thank you.
Emmoe: I was like, that's a new one. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Chris: I was like, I want to know the details.
Tim: Yeah.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Chris: I love it. A Licensed Family Marriage Specialist.
Tim: Therapist.
Chris: Therapist.
Carol: Licensed Marriage Family Therapist.
Chris: Got it.
Carol: LMFT.
Tim: You can get those correct.
Emmoe: That's awesome.
Chris: This is great.
Tim: Yeah. So my mom is, you kind of think that growing up with a woman who is one of them, you'd be kind of nervous that she's shrinking you all the time.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: But she kind of wields it really well.
Carol: Thank you.
Tim: Yeah. You really do, mom. It's a beautiful thing how you will speak or give thoughts when you're asked and you kind of hold that loosely and you're a great listener. This is an incredible woman everybody.
Carol: Thank you.
Tim: Yeah.
Carol: You will be paid later, sweetie.
Tim: Yes. So what's your most recent moral failure, mom? Do you want to just go to there? I'd feel like it'd be a good thing to ask mom. No?
Chris: I've started asking people that question.
Emmoe: No. No.
Tim: Yeah?
Chris: Yeah. You're rubbing off on me, Tim. I haven't asked my mom yet, but...
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not going to ask my mom that.
Emmoe: The wrong practice.
Tim: Yeah.
Tim: So you guys, I wanted to bring my mom on because we had a conversation last week, us three, when we were at lunch, we were at a terrific Mexican place by the way. I'm always craving Mexican food out here because we don't have it like we have it in California.
Carol: Right, right. Yes.
Tim: And we found a spot and let's just say it puts some holes in some parts of my body that I didn't know where needed. The salsa.
Chris: It hit me just right. It hit me just right.
Emmoe: Is that your Yelp review?
Chris: But Tim-
Emmoe: It put some holes and I'm like, wait, wait, do I want to go there? Do I not want to go there?
Tim: No. What I meant in my heart. No, it was so good. But we were having this conversation. We're talking about grief. I've been walking through a lot of really difficult things in so many areas of my life, which I'm not going to actually really go to in depth in because it's not appropriate. My marriage is wonderful and my wife and family are great. There are just some really heavy things that I'm really mourning right now and grieving. And I've never really had to experience this kind of grieving in so many different areas. And Emmoe, you've had so much experience in grieving your brother's death.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Chris: And Chris, you've had a lot of grief just in family stuff and in so many different ways. And so as we're talking, Emmoe said did something that just kind of rocked my world. She said, "For the first seven years of my grief, I tried to grieve really well. I tried to like master it."
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: Wow.
Emmoe: U tried to grieve with grace. I think I was trying to not overwhelm anyone with my grief, and I was trying to not discount God's character at the same time. And I was just so numb to my pain for seven years because I was like, Buddy's good. And so like I tried to trump my emotion with a truth I wasn't really experiencing.
Chris: Oh wow.
Emmoe: For so many years.
Tim: But then you said?
Emmoe: Then I probably said, "I want another taco." And then you said, "Nope, our budget."
Tim: You said grief just happens to you.
Emmoe: Oh, yeah.
Tim: And that rocked me. And I think in this season I've been trying to grieve well. I'm trying to do it well, I'm trying to love still in the midst of things. Yet, it hit me and Chris, we started getting into some of your stuff. We just said, we need to do one of these on grief.
Chris: Yeah.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: And I thought who better to talk about grief than my mom. She is just so, so wise beyond her 55 years. And I'm always going to my mom, all of us kids and I've got two older sisters and we're always going to my mom with questions or thoughts. And there's just always this beautiful wisdom of spirit stuff and psychology.
Chris: Wow.
Tim: She has such a great blend of these two.
Chris: I love that.
Tim: You guys thank you so much for being a part of this podcast. It is such an honor to walk in this with you as we're trying to figure out how to join Jesus in our week in the craziness and in the mundane. So thanks for jumping in.
Tim: I also just wanted to say, thank you specifically to Anne, Heather, Leanne, Lindsay, Diane, Lee, or Lea, it could be Lea and Lynn. All of you apparently have L's in your name. You guys are totally winning. So thank you for financially partnering with us. We are so thankful for that because this is not cheap, nor is it free. But hopefully this has actually been so encouraging to you that's why you're giving. So if this has been encouraging to you can always go to 10,000minutes.com, 10000minutes.com and in the upper right it says donate or check out different places where and get resources there.
Tim: So we've decided to split this conversation up into two different episodes because it was seriously so, so good. Chris, Emmoe and I have been texting each other just as friends talking about the stuff we're learning on this. So I think you're going to love both of these. So get ready. And it's just hanging out with my mom. She's like the coolest, so here we go.
Tim: So mom, I wanted to bring you on to help us just even talk through it. And I know there's so many people listening that are either walking through grief right now, or have walked through grief or will be walking through grief in a week. And the other little thing is that grief is not just losing a loved one. It's not just these huge things. I mean, it's down to, you had a hard relationship with a friend or, I mean, there are even the small little things that I would never think you need to grieve.
Emmoe: Right.
Tim: We actually might need to rethink our thinking on grieving.
Tim: So mom, there are five stages of grief. Is that correct?
Carol: Yes, yes.
Tim: You want to just run through those?
Carol: Okay. Yes. And let me just start by saying, please interrupt me at any point. I have some things I generally say about grief and I will go through them as long as you let me talk.
Tim: We have eight hours left, mom, and we will interrupt you to make fun of each other at some point.
Emmoe: That's true.
Carol: So I want you to interrupt and ask questions and stop and don't just say, oh, she needs to keep going.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: Awesome.
Carol: Fair.
Emmoe: Oh, that's healing.
Tim: Bully her. Bully this woman. Yeah. It's going to be great.
Carol: Well, I started thinking about this. Timothy asked me to do this the other day and so I thought, okay, I'll just write and I wrote out four pages. Boom, boom. Just wrote them out. So that's why I need for you to stop me because I'll just keep going. And I was remembering in my era, in my day, there was a very popular book when I was raising my family and the title of it was Necessary Losses by Judith Viorst. And it's actually a classic at this point, even though it's an old book by now. But her point was, she was a few years older than I was at the time. She was in her fifties. I was in my thirties or so when I was reading the book and her point was there are necessary losses in our lives and the older we get, the more we will have them.
Chris: Hmm. Wow.
Carol: We hope that we're going to go through life and just skip through on the freeway that we've planned. But there are all kinds of necessary losses. Children grow up and leave. The very idea. We get older and our bodies don't do the same thing as they did when we were younger. Friends come and go. People come and go in our lives. Circumstances change. There are necessary losses. And it was a very lighthearted book. It was an entertaining book because she was just making fun of herself and all of us. And what are the things that we're losing? It was a delightful book to read it. Wasn't like, oh gosh, we've got to read a book about losses.
Tim: Right.
Carol: No, it was just fun. And she told stories and told stories on herself and made herself look foolish. So we all loved the book.
Tim: Were you going to say stupid?
Carol: No, I was not going to say that.
Tim: Okay you guys. That was a bad word in my house. Mom [inaudible 00:10:23]. Sorry.
Emmoe: I do like that [inaudible 00:10:24].
Chris: She was a licensed professional. She didn't say things like that.
Emmoe: Yeah. She's done this before. Okay.
Tim: Okay. Keep going. Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
Carol: So anyway, so I was just thinking, and that book was for all of us to just come to grips with reality. And I think that's what grief is, it's coming to grips with reality.
Chris: Wow.
Carol: I think that reality is a hard thing. The opposite of reality is mental illness, so we don't really want to do that.
Chris: Wow. Yeah.
Carol: We want to live in reality.
Chris: That's right.
Carol: So as a therapist, that's what I do a lot is try to say in a kindly way, this is reality. We need to understand that and let's get our feet on the ground and come to grips with that and move on.
Chris: Wow.
Carol: So anyway, yeah, and I was just thinking that grief applies to anything we lose, whether it's jewelry or important papers or your keys or a person or a pet or whomever.
Chris: Yeah.
Carol: Grief is losing something important. And the technical thing is deep sorrow, deep sorrow regarding anything that's a trouble or an annoyance. And you know, sometimes, well, if it's really a grief it's a deep sorrow. If it's trouble or an annoyance, it's something like somebody says, "Well, don't give me grief over this decision."
Tim: Right.
Chris: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Carol: Well, that's just another way to use that. But true grief that we're talking about is deep stuff. I saw a quote on surviving grief and I liked it, so I wrote it down. Cry whenever you need to. Scream, shout, lay on the floor, sob in the shower, be still, run, walk, listen, breathe, release your pain, throw away the map, be real, read, seek friendship, be vulnerable, don't fear being broken.
Chris: Wow. AKA live your life.
Emmoe: I know. I'm like exposed. Whoa. Geez.
Tim: That's beautiful.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Carol: I was thinking about it this morning too, and it just came to me that, because a picture's worth a thousand words. We are all on the freeway of life and we would just like to keep going 70 miles an hour.
Tim: Right.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carol: But sometimes in our lane there's a detour.
Chris: Yep.
Carol: And we don't like it because some of the other lanes don't have that stoppage and they can just wiz on by and that's annoying. And we don't like to have a detour. And so, yes, that's sort of an intro to the five stages of grief. So you've heard of the five stages of grief?
Chris: Yeah.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: Yes.
Carol: Do you know where they started? Where they came from?
Tim: Jesus.
Tim: It felt right to.
Chris: Different, different class.
Tim: Different class.
Chris: Yeah. Different class.
Tim: Oh, grief. Sorry.
Emmoe: No.
Tim: No mom, I don't know the history.
Carol: Well, there was the doctor. Her name was Elizabeth Kuber Ross. You probably heard that name. And she was doing research on cancer patients and she found in her research that all cancer patients went through five stages of grief.
Tim: Yeah.
Carol: So she wrote a book about it, the five stages of grief with those going through cancer.
Chris: And what are the five stages?
Carol: And you can remember them with an acronym. It's DABSA. First stage is denial. Second one is anger. Third one is bargaining. Fourth one is sadness. And the fifth one is acceptance.
Chris: Wow.
Carol: But I'm going to introduce a sixth one.
Chris: Okay.
Carol: But I'll hold that one for a minute.
Tim: So it's DABSA?
Carol: DABSA.
Tim: DABSA. Would you say sadness?
Carol: DABSA.
Chris: Or depression?
Carol: DABSA. DABSA.
Chris: DABSA.
Carol: DABSA. Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Actually, Kuber Ross said denial, anger, bargaining, depression.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Oh okay.
Carol: But I don't use that because depression is a clinical term and it's really not the same as grief.
Tim: Right.
Chris: Yeah.
Emmoe: Right.
Carol: Grief is one thing. Depression is another. Now you can be depressed in grief, but depression is a whole slew of clinical other symptoms.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Carol: And it is not grief.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: Somebody asked me yesterday that knows some of my journey right now. They said, "How are you?" And I'm like, "I think I'm in like a mild depression." But would you say, I mean, I'm actually, okay. I don't think this is a clinical thing. I'm just, I'm really sad. My heart is really sad and angry at certain things. So would you say it's more of a mild sadness?
Carol: Yeah. I think you're in grief.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Tim: Okay.
Chris: Yeah.
Carol: We say depressions sets in after about two years of being under constant stress, tension, pressure, terrible things going on. I'm just talking clinically because I'm from a clinical background. So I don't like to use a clinical term when we should use the word sadness.
Tim: Totally. That makes a ton of sense.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Chris: Actually, I really love that. Yeah.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: It's almost more beautiful. That is actually more beautiful for my heart to say, I'm just sad. Instead of depressed feels a little bit more removed.
Emmoe: Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: I don't know why that kind hits me a different way, but I feel really sad and that actually attaches to my emotions more than the mild depression does.
Carol: That's right. That's right. Because depression is just a whole syndrome of clinical symptoms, but you have something you're sad about.
Tim: Yeah. Right.
Carol: So, okay, so to go back through denial is a normal reaction to rationalize overwhelming emotions.
Chris: A normal reaction to rationalize-
Carol: A normal reaction to rationalize overwhelming emotions. So something very bad happens or something even a little bit bad happens. I lost my keys just before I was ready to go to church yesterday and I was supposed to be there for something and I totally lost, I couldn't walk out the door. First of all, they have to be here. I'm in denial.
Tim: Yeah. Right.
Carol: Then I'm angry. I had those keys. Where are they? I'm so mad. Then I'm bargaining. If only I could remember exactly when I had them, where I could have put them down. And then sadness, they're not here. I'm just, I'm bummed. I got to call them and tell them, I'll be late. And acceptance. Okay. The keys are gone. Do you have another set? Yes. I have another set. Acceptance.
Tim: Right. Right. Even in just that small little thing of losing your keys.
Tim: Okay. So as we start diving into rethinking the word grief for the next two episodes, let's just take a moment and make a mental note or a literal list of a few things that have not gone our way in the past, present, and the future. What has been lost or is in the process of being lost or might you potentially lose in the future? It might be a job or it's a certain status or an identity. It might be a thing, might be people or relationships. What have you lost?
Carol: So it's helpful to understand the five stages because you can say, okay, woo, I guess I'm in bargaining or it's fair for me to be in anger. I'm angry about this situation.
Chris: Is there a typical time that people stay in any of these phases, like denial? I could imagine like grief or even if you stayed where you are for so long, it becoming depression, if we deny long enough.
Carol: That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. And of course the length that we stay depends on a lot of factors. The seriousness of the loss, the stability of our own self. If I'm used to living in reality, then it's going to be hard for me to deal with reality. How the people all around me are responding. All kinds of factors. I'll say this, it's linear in the sense that we go from denial to anger, to bargaining, to sadness, to acceptance. But it's not linear in the sense that we go from denial to anger, to denial, denial, denial, anger, bargaining, anger, anger, anger, denial, bargaining.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Yeah.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carol: So once we've started on the journey, we can go back and forth and do more of whatever it is we haven't fully done yet.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I feel that in some of my journey where it's like, I thought I actually accepted this at some point. And then come back and like, wow, maybe I didn't, or it hits you from a different angle.
Emmoe: That's too real.
Carol: Well, and you probably did accept whatever it was, but there was more acceptance to do.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: Yeah. That's true.
Carol: That's the point. So don't feel bad if you think you've already come to acceptance and you go back and do some more denial. Okay. Let's pick it up, pick it up and do it.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Does grief ever, love me through this question, does grief ever end? I mean, is this just new pathways of grieving a certain thing. Do you ever stop the grieving process?
Carol: Excellent question, my dear. We say true grief resolves. Maybe it doesn't end, it resolves.
Emmoe: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carol: There is such a thing as morbid grief and clinically it's called complicated bereavement. And clinically, after two years, if someone is just still in a pile and they can't get out of their grief, then we're going to say, well, I think it might even be complicated bereavement. It might be more serious. And I'll use the example of my dad. My dad has been gone 40 years this year.
Chris: Wow. Wow.
Chris: There are times when I am thinking about my family and Tim, I'm thinking about the grandchildren and I'm thinking, I wish they knew daddy. I wish they knew my dad.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carol: Or if I'm talking to somebody in a session and I start to tear up over my dad.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Emmoe: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: Yeah.
Carol: But you know, my grief over my father is resolved. I don't wear it on my sleeve, but when it comes up, I do it and I cry. I let myself cry. Why not?
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Yeah.
Carol: He was wonderful. I loved him. And he was a great influence in my life. And I wouldn't be who I am without him and all of that. So true grief resolves. We come to a place of resolve, but that doesn't mean that it's totally over and we never grieve that person again, or I'm done grieving. And think of it as a journey. It's a journey. It's not a destination.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Right. Right.
Carol: Okay. Now, what makes sense?
Tim: Even with your dad, that you still cry with your dad. I mean, you and I will talk about your dad and you will move to tears at a moment's notice. Is it just become this soft sadness at the end of it?
Carol: That's a good way to put it.
Tim: I mean, I feel like that's where it is with you. There's not this anger. I don't see any of those pieces of the stages of grief other than just a sadness and a love. I mean, it's really beautiful how you love your dad and even mourn over your dad.
Chris: Yeah. I wonder if that's almost honoring and like celebrating the goodness of it, whether it's a person or a situation. When you're grieving, it's because you've obviously lost something that meant something to you.
Carol: Right.
Chris: And so when we come back to that even over years and can grieve it again, it's like, wow, this was really special. I guess, maybe the idea is can we do that without losing everything else and losing our minds in the middle of it?
Carol: Yes. And that's the hope, isn't it? Isn't that great?
Chris: Yeah.
Carol: That we can grieve, and we can cry, and then we can pick up and go on.
Chris: Yeah.
Emmoe: Yeah.
Chris: And by actually doing it, by you saying I'm going to feel these feelings about my dad now, it's actually honoring.
Carol: Yes.
Chris: The experience, instead of pushing it away and denying it.
Carol: That's right. That's right.
Tim: Well, what's that sixth DABSA?
Carol: All right. I'm just going to read through the-
Tim: All right. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Do you guys have a thought of the letter that it's going to be? Is it that the end, mom? DABSA.
Carol: No, no, no. It'll be a surprise. It'll be a surprise.
Emmoe: Is it? Is it?
Tim: I'm saying it's a T.
Chris: It's a T.
Tim: Rebalance.
Chris: Ret's go.
Emmoe: Is it?
Chris: Ret's go.
Emmoe: No, no. I want to see if I can get it right.
Carol: So denial. Now, anger is as the numbness wears off of the pain of loss, anger takes hold, and that's when we start to blame. We blame ourselves, we blame others, we lash out, whatever. The bargaining part is when we say if only, and that's the what ifs. And that helps us, it's a temporary coping mechanism from the pain. We've been in denial, been angry and it's exhausting, so we start in on bargaining. Well, if you would've, if I would've, if they would've, why didn't you? Well, how could you not? And it gives the person sort of a time to adjust to the reality of the situation by bargaining.
Chris: Do you see people spiraling here? I know in some of the things that I've gone through, I feel like, and maybe this isn't bargaining, tell me if it is. I will go uber into details. I need to know everything around this and understand it, but it really I'm just spiraling into this never ending abyss of filling my mind with useless information.
Carol: Well, I would rather have you see it as a coping mechanism. Just like I said, it's a temporary escape from the pain.
Chris: Yes. That's a better way to say it.
Carol: And it appears to provide an explanation or a hope of some kind. It doesn't really, but when you ask someone who's lost someone close to them, they want to tell you all the details. Well, this happened and then that happened and then they did this and then all of us didn't know what to do.
Chris: Right.
Carol: So they want to tell the story over and over and over again, because it's a way of going, wait a minute, it really happened. Didn't it? Didn't it really happen?
Emmoe: Yeah.
Chris: Wow.
Carol: So anyway, the bargaining, if only, last a long time for most people. Most people say, well, I just don't understand. I don't know why it had to happen or why this was, or how did it, why didn't some other of people? Why didn't the doctors? Why didn't? Well, they should have, and I can't believe I did. It's a long stage.
Chris: Yeah. That's right.
Carol: Then the fourth one is the sadness that I was talking about and not to be mixed up with depression. It's an appropriate response to a great loss. That's sadness.
Tim: Sadness is?
Carol: It's an appropriate response to a great loss or whatever.
Chris: So we shouldn't be afraid of it?
Carol: No. No.
Chris: Yeah.
Carol: We have to do it. If we don't do it, it will come out again. It will surface over and over again.
Tim: Any other stages or just it'll surface?
Carol: The sadness will. Yes. It'll come out in anger. It'll come out in denial. We need to do our sadness.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: And this maybe is the part where you feel like you've tried to do that with grace, the sadness part?
Emmoe: I think all of it, really. The more I listen to the way Carol, you're explaining things, the more it's about permission, and that's been a big part of my life.
Carol: Yes, yes.
Emmoe: I didn't feel like I had permission to be that angry or that sad or permission to even ask for things. So my life has been very much a bargain. Everything I do is like settling. So it's so much more of like, I'm not going to ask for much, so death isn't around the corner again.
Chris: Wow.
Emmoe: It's not so much that I didn't feel it's that I didn't feel like I had permission to be so angry because my parents reacted differently or my community felt uncomfortable with how sad I was. So it's just all those stages, really.
Carol: Boy, I've heard that before. I listened to these things and I've heard you say that before and I've thought that you were trying to be very, very brave and maybe trying to be very spiritual with the situation.
Emmoe: Yeah. Yeah. I think I was trying to. And the part where you're saying that grief resolves, I think I was trying to find the redemption in grief instead of just it just being what it is.
Carol: Right.
Chris: Wow.
Emmoe: And like God is in that instead of like, where's the testimony, where's the point. So I can say it was worth feeling so crappy.
Chris: Were you trying to skip some steps to get to the resolution of it?
Emmoe: Totally. Yeah. And being a worship leader and a mentor, I felt the pressure to be and then for my parents to be the only one left. So for them to like just check out, I was like, how do I do of this at 22?
Carol: Yes.
Chris: Wow.
Emmoe: But even now I'm like, man, every day, it's about permission.
Carol: I think that's an excellent way to look at it because you didn't give yourself permission to grieve. And sometimes it takes a long time to really assimilate that permission to grieve. I had an experience when I was early marriage, early twenties. My closest friend growing up, my childhood friend, Janice, died of Leukemia. I was married and couldn't go back for the service. And so I grieved alone. I did my best. I wrote her mother a letter. I went over how good of friends we were and how I loved her and I knew she was with the Lord and on and on. In my mind, I had grieved. But 20 years later I saw the movie Beaches.
Emmoe: Oh boy.
Carol: I don't know if everybody understands the movie Beaches, but it was about two women who were very close friends. I totally identified with that movie. In that movie, the quiet girl passed away and the loud one lived. Bette Midler was the sort of loud, in your person. Well, it was the opposite with Janice and me. I was the quiet one. She was the upfront, she was going to be a doctor, she was a leader, she had the best grades, she was everything. And so in my mind it was so totally twisted around.
Carol: When I got home from that movie, I sobbed for an entire hour. I couldn't get my breath. I was grieving Janice because I thought, why did I live and she died? And I had to make sense of it. I had to do my bargaining and make sense of it. So every year on her birthday, I celebrate her birthday and I thank the Lord for allowing me to live and to let me be in place of her as well. I had to make sense of it somehow, but 20 years of not really understanding that I hadn't fully grieved.
Tim: Wow.
Chris: Wow.
Chris: I've got a couple questions.
Carol: Yes.
Chris: And that you can get to, or not. I wonder, we talked so much like about faith on this thing, and one question, you can answer these, however you want is do you find a faith angle to be helpful in this? Or can it be both helpful and hurtful in people. Like what Emmoe was saying is like, I tried to jump to like the God is good and it made me skip all these steps. And then gosh, what was my second question?
Tim: That's a great question, Chris.
Chris: Let's start with that one, I think and move on to another.
Carol: Think about who we know Jesus is. He is a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
Tim: Wow.
Carol: Isn't that wonderful that we're told that.
Tim: Woo.
Carol: He knows us. He knows us intimately. We are his children. He doesn't want us to be fake. He wants us to be real. He understands grief. As a matter of fact, he went through terrible grief and sadness as he was dying on the cross. And he asked his friends just kind of come and hold his hand and they fell asleep.
Chris: Yeah.
Carol: He understands.
Tim: I mean, what if Jesus actually understands our grief? I mean, I know it's such a Christian thing to say that he walks with us and he talks about us. But like, what if he actually understands our grief and wants to walk with us in it and restore us through it?
Tim: This week I'd love for us to even just start rethinking this idea of grief. There are huge things that maybe we need to rethink and re-look at our grieving process on. So if that's the case, who would you want to do that with? Who is somebody safe? Whether it's a therapist or whether it's just a friend, who is somebody that you can walk through this process with?
Tim: And on the other side of this, there are so many little things that happen all week long that I think I don't grieve well. And that I don't think we as a people grieve well. And after a while, these things seem to build up and build up and then actually cause resentment. And generally at some point they catch up with us. So this week let's practice being aware of the things that we might need to begin a grieving process with. And remember as we grieve and walk through this stuff, we're going to do this with Jesus.
Tim: We decided to split up this podcast because next week we're going to look at how to walk with others in their grief. And then how do we walk with Jesus in our grief? You're going to want to jump in next week with us. It's so good. You guys, I'm so thankful for you. I'm so thankful to walk through this with you. If you want to get a few encouraging texts, please text 10K, 10K to the number 55678 or just go to 10,000minutes.com and check out all the different resources there. And if you guys want to give that would be amazing too, because we'd love to continue doing this.
Tim: Thanks you guys.
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